God Exists: An Open Debate
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19-10-2012, 02:08 PM
 
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 01:55 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Egor, if you could, would you explain the ramifications of your belief? Does knowing the universe is god make your life any different from one who believes the universe has always existed?

I guess what I'm really asking is, why does your belief matter?

Well, first off, the universe hasn't always existed, not the physical universe anyway. Granted, astronomers could be wrong, but they calculate it to be 13.7 billion years old--I think.

My belief matters to me, because it helps me understand who I am and why I exist. It helps me with my existential dilemmas, crises, and angst, and that helps me face death. It also seems inherently right to search out this kind of knowledge, and I have no explanation for that.

Let me say this: I could be wrong, but it doesn't really matter. I know that Edward Gordon ceases to exist at death. Either I will wake up as God and say, "Hmm, that Edward Dream was interesting." Or I will think no more.

But I think it's the former, because of signs I have seen and things I have experienced. The protozoa that swim around, if you place a drop of industrial strength bathroom floor cleaner onto the slide, like I did in microbiology (and yes, me and my friend giggled and kept doing it for fun), the microbe eventually stops swimming and ruptures. It was a conscious animal before that, no doubt, but it never had any kind of nervous system whatsoever, no brain, no nothing. What happened to the consciousness? It was never accounted for in the first place. So, I don't think the floor cleaner stopped it.

That's what I'm talking about. Blink
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19-10-2012, 02:27 PM
God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 02:08 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(19-10-2012 01:55 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Egor, if you could, would you explain the ramifications of your belief? Does knowing the universe is god make your life any different from one who believes the universe has always existed?

I guess what I'm really asking is, why does your belief matter?

Well, first off, the universe hasn't always existed, not the physical universe anyway. Granted, astronomers could be wrong, but they calculate it to be 13.7 billion years old--I think.

My belief matters to me, because it helps me understand who I am and why I exist. It helps me with my existential dilemmas, crises, and angst, and that helps me face death. It also seems inherently right to search out this kind of knowledge, and I have no explanation for that.

Let me say this: I could be wrong, but it doesn't really matter. I know that Edward Gordon ceases to exist at death. Either I will wake up as God and say, "Hmm, that Edward Dream was interesting." Or I will think no more.

But I think it's the former, because of signs I have seen and things I have experienced. The protozoa that swim around, if you place a drop of industrial strength bathroom floor cleaner onto the slide, like I did in microbiology (and yes, me and my friend giggled and kept doing it for fun), the microbe eventually stops swimming and ruptures. It was a conscious animal before that, no doubt, but it never had any kind of nervous system whatsoever, no brain, no nothing. What happened to the consciousness? It was never accounted for in the first place. So, I don't think the floor cleaner stopped it.

That's what I'm talking about. Blink

Okay, that makes sense within your framework. It seems to me it's a philosophical outlook to give yourself a sense of meaning.

The reason I brought up belief that the universe is eternal comes from the cosmological belief that the "big bang" that we know about was just one of many, either in some sort of cycle where the universe is ever expanding and contracting and blowing up and starting the cycle again. And/or the thought that our universe is just one of a myriad of universes existing in a much larger multiverse.

If I may make a bold prediction, it seems like there really isn't any difference between your god/universe and my eternal universe except that you believe some essence of you continues existing as god and I believe we die and our atoms and molecules go back into the universe.

You'll likely disagree, but it seems from my point of view that there is no practical difference between your view and mine. Neither of us worship anything and neither of us feel obligated to follow prescribed rules and regulations that give shape to religions.

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19-10-2012, 02:34 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 01:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  A conscious being looks at the nature that surrounds him and sees systems in place.

"Systems" : A word, invented by humans, and possibly insufficient to describe what you are referring to. Which systems? Biological? Astronomical? Physical? Most of this has been explained by science already, or has had hypotheses proposes which make better work of coming close to an explanation than "consciousness". You appear to be trying to anthropomorphize your environment. Is this wise?

(19-10-2012 01:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  And it is inconceivable to that conscious being that a system would form without intent.
Which conscious being(s)? Are you saying anyone who is capable of conceiving this is unconscious? I have no problem conceiving of happy accidents and random happenstance. This has all been sufficiently explained to me. Which explanations of these concepts have you been exposed to that you find "inconceivable?"

(19-10-2012 01:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  It is the intent the being wonders about. Because in all of nature that he lives in, only animals seem capable of intent. Only conscious entities seem capable of intent.
Perhaps this conscious being has been living around so many seemingly conscious things it has conditioned his perception? He is incapable of perceiving an intentless cosmos?

(19-10-2012 01:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  You can say it's all just an accident formed out of nothing, because when there was nothing there were no laws of logic to prevent it from happening, so...it...just...did.
Not everyone who claims the universe has no apparent intent also claims it was formed from nothing. I am content to admit I do not know what came before the suggested Big Bang. How is it you feel confident claiming knowledge of things that happened billions of years before your existence?

(19-10-2012 01:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  But that's not a rational belief--even if it's true, it's not a conclusion a rational mind comes to.
I can tell such conclusions make you uncomfortable. That much is clear to me. Why is this an irrational notion? What is wrong with a universe that exists without purpose or intent? Why is a will or intent necessary to explain the current state?

(19-10-2012 01:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  There is no proof that everything is a happy accident.
Happy? This accident hasn't always been happy my friend. We suffer much on this little planet. From each other and from the universe we inhabit. Lucky, yes. But serendipitous is not a word that comes to mind. Amazing. Wondrous. Awesome. But our lives exist on the edge of a knife in this violent universe. Also, time is limited. We will, eventually need to learn how to exist without this planet.

(19-10-2012 01:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  There is no proof that a conscious entity is forming this universe in its mind. But of the two, it is not rational to believe the former.
Why?

(19-10-2012 01:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  One can say, "I just don't know." One can say, "I just don't care." These are still rational positions. One can assume a consciousness created the systems in nature, that's also rational.
Again, this seems too much like anthropomorphism to me. A natural inclination of our simian species to attribute aspects of ourselves in the more intimidating aspects of our environs in order to better cope. Nothing to be ashamed of, but not necessarily "rational."

(19-10-2012 01:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  But to say it just happened out of nothing for no reason, and just so happens to evolve into systems for no reason, and gravity just happened to pop up, and the laws of physics just happen to be in place, etc. That is magical thinking, and that is not rational.
Again, not everyone claims the universe was formed from nothing. Even so, why would this be irrational?

(19-10-2012 01:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  Ergo, it is not rational to be an atheist. You can be anti-religious and agnostic or apatheistic, but not atheist. No
I agree, if your prior assertions were true, this would be true. I do not agree with your prior assertions.

Also, from another previous post (I'll go find it) I heard words that sounded like further evidence this is wish thinking on your part. Evidence to the effect that humans should expect to possess godlike powers under the right circumstances. To me, these do not sound like the words of someone thinking rationally, but wishfully.

In conclusion, I am unconvinced.

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19-10-2012, 02:42 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 02:27 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(19-10-2012 02:08 PM)Egor Wrote:  Well, first off, the universe hasn't always existed, not the physical universe anyway. Granted, astronomers could be wrong, but they calculate it to be 13.7 billion years old--I think.

My belief matters to me, because it helps me understand who I am and why I exist. It helps me with my existential dilemmas, crises, and angst, and that helps me face death. It also seems inherently right to search out this kind of knowledge, and I have no explanation for that.

Let me say this: I could be wrong, but it doesn't really matter. I know that Edward Gordon ceases to exist at death. Either I will wake up as God and say, "Hmm, that Edward Dream was interesting." Or I will think no more.

But I think it's the former, because of signs I have seen and things I have experienced. The protozoa that swim around, if you place a drop of industrial strength bathroom floor cleaner onto the slide, like I did in microbiology (and yes, me and my friend giggled and kept doing it for fun), the microbe eventually stops swimming and ruptures. It was a conscious animal before that, no doubt, but it never had any kind of nervous system whatsoever, no brain, no nothing. What happened to the consciousness? It was never accounted for in the first place. So, I don't think the floor cleaner stopped it.

That's what I'm talking about. Blink

Okay, that makes sense within your framework. It seems to me it's a philosophical outlook to give yourself a sense of meaning.

The reason I brought up belief that the universe is eternal comes from the cosmological belief that the "big bang" that we know about was just one of many, either in some sort of cycle where the universe is ever expanding and contracting and blowing up and starting the cycle again. And/or the thought that our universe is just one of a myriad of universes existing in a much larger multiverse.

If I may make a bold prediction, it seems like there really isn't any difference between your god/universe and my eternal universe except that you believe some essence of you continues existing as god and I believe we die and our atoms and molecules go back into the universe.

You'll likely disagree, but it seems from my point of view that there is no practical difference between your view and mine. Neither of us worship anything and neither of us feel obligated to follow prescribed rules and regulations that give shape to religions.

I agree that the differences between your views are probably benign. But, I think the functional difference here is "consciousness" or "intent". You may agree that our particles return to a continuum of matter. Egor seems to be suggesting (correct me if I am wrong) that there is a sentience guiding or manipulating the formations these particles aggregate into. I think it's the suggestion that every constituent particle of the universe is bound to the direction of a "will" which guides the "progress" of the universe.

Your description sounds much more naturalistic to me. Egor's seems more deist.

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19-10-2012, 02:47 PM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2012 08:58 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 02:08 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(19-10-2012 01:55 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Egor, if you could, would you explain the ramifications of your belief? Does knowing the universe is god make your life any different from one who believes the universe has always existed?

I guess what I'm really asking is, why does your belief matter?

Well, first off, the universe hasn't always existed, not the physical universe anyway. Granted, astronomers could be wrong, but they calculate it to be 13.7 billion years old--I think.

My belief matters to me, because it helps me understand who I am and why I exist. It helps me with my existential dilemmas, crises, and angst, and that helps me face death. It also seems inherently right to search out this kind of knowledge, and I have no explanation for that.

Let me say this: I could be wrong, but it doesn't really matter. I know that Edward Gordon ceases to exist at death. Either I will wake up as God and say, "Hmm, that Edward Dream was interesting." Or I will think no more.

But I think it's the former, because of signs I have seen and things I have experienced. The protozoa that swim around, if you place a drop of industrial strength bathroom floor cleaner onto the slide, like I did in microbiology (and yes, me and my friend giggled and kept doing it for fun), the microbe eventually stops swimming and ruptures. It was a conscious animal before that, no doubt, but it never had any kind of nervous system whatsoever, no brain, no nothing. What happened to the consciousness? It was never accounted for in the first place. So, I don't think the floor cleaner stopped it.

That's what I'm talking about. Blink

Ed,
I think you may be "anthropomorphizing" things, a bit, for Pete the Parmecium. Cool
I think you're a good, compassionate guy, and you feel guilty about pestering the little guy. Tongue No,it's just chemical reactions. I'll try to find some and explain why that would happen in the environment of the "basic" pH. I know you know a lot of Chemistry, being a Cards nurse. So, I'll try to explain it in those terms. The chemistry inside a cell does not imply "consciousness", as I see it. There is also a difference between "reflex" / "reaction", and purposeful action. If you did not have "memory", (which Pete does not), then ["input information" referenced to memory" + emotion, (reflexive input) + a few other things] does NOT obtain "consciousness". The question is, "why does consciousness arise form the molecular level of complexity. There appears to be no other examples of it. Do you think an IBM computer with "sensory input" referenced to a large memory, would be conscious ?

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19-10-2012, 03:22 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 01:46 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(19-10-2012 06:25 AM)bemore Wrote:  I think it depends on what Egor terms as "god"... the word means many different things to many different people on so many different levels, both positive and negative.

Exactly? And that’s why when someone tells me they’re an atheist, it means little more than when someone say’s they believe in “God.” An atheist who “doesn’t believe in any form of gods” is irrational, because how can they know what forms of gods may be presented to them? They are close-minded. And that is a hallmark of religion. Dodgy

Wrong. Again you misunderstand.

I do know exactly what forms of gods HAVE been presented to me and found none of them believable. Therefore, I am an atheist because I don't believe in any form of god presented to me so far.

As for what you say, you're right, I don't know what forms of gods may be presented to me in the future, but where you're wrong is your assumptions that follow. I don't disbelieve those future gods, I don't have a lack of belief in those future gods, and I'm not closed-minded about those future possibilities.

Sure, I can't say I believe in a future god that hasn't been presented to me, but I'm honest enough to say that I don't and can't disbelieve in them either. It is, however, worth noting that lots of gods and religions have come my way and they have all failed to inspire any belief. Based on that I have little expectation that the next one will do any better, but that doesn't mean I won't look, listen, and evaluate it on its own merit and make a separate, informed decision about it.

You didn't even have the decency to say "some atheists are close minded". You just made the one blanket statement which is patently false.

Frankly, I resent you accusing me of being close-minded and dodgy; are you measuring me by your yardstick?

I will give you credit for recognizing that close-mindedness is the hallmark of religion, but don't make the all-too-common mistake of assuming that all skeptics, agnostics, and/or atheists are just following a religion of godlessness - you would be dead wrong in that assumption.

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19-10-2012, 03:30 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 12:26 PM)Egor Wrote:  Oh, silly me. In that case, go fuck yourself.
Why should i fuck myself? I fucked you, thats enough fucking for a day!

And if you have calm down, try to find a civilized way to respond.
I whish you a nice weekend.

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19-10-2012, 04:16 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 01:58 PM)Egor Wrote:  Ergo, it is not rational to be an atheist. You can be anti-religious and agnostic or apatheistic, but not atheist. No
Atheism is a stance on the question of whether or not there is a god, not on the cause of the universe. Where did you get that idea from?

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19-10-2012, 09:01 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
It's no use playing the anthropomorphizing card with Egor.

Even though the scientific literature is quite clear about the lack of consciousness in protozoa, Egor won't buy it.

Why?

My best guess is that it's because his neural networks (like everyone else's) are working hard to sabotage any efforts to change their structure.

My second best guess is that like many people, he struggles to grasp that consciousness requires self-awareness, and that's what separates the reaction of a protozoa to bathroom cleaner (or the reaction of photons to other types of particles) from what humans, whales, chimps, elephants, and various other types of animals do.

But that's ok. Every silver lining has a touch of grey.


(19-10-2012 02:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-10-2012 02:08 PM)Egor Wrote:  Well, first off, the universe hasn't always existed, not the physical universe anyway. Granted, astronomers could be wrong, but they calculate it to be 13.7 billion years old--I think.

My belief matters to me, because it helps me understand who I am and why I exist. It helps me with my existential dilemmas, crises, and angst, and that helps me face death. It also seems inherently right to search out this kind of knowledge, and I have no explanation for that.

Let me say this: I could be wrong, but it doesn't really matter. I know that Edward Gordon ceases to exist at death. Either I will wake up as God and say, "Hmm, that Edward Dream was interesting." Or I will think no more.

But I think it's the former, because of signs I have seen and things I have experienced. The protozoa that swim around, if you place a drop of industrial strength bathroom floor cleaner onto the slide, like I did in microbiology (and yes, me and my friend giggled and kept doing it for fun), the microbe eventually stops swimming and ruptures. It was a conscious animal before that, no doubt, but it never had any kind of nervous system whatsoever, no brain, no nothing. What happened to the consciousness? It was never accounted for in the first place. So, I don't think the floor cleaner stopped it.

That's what I'm talking about. Blink

Ed,
I think you may be "anthropomorphizing" things, a bit, for Pete the Parmecium. Cool
I think you're a good, compassionate guy, and you feel guilty about pestering the little guy. Tongue No,it's just chemical reactions. I try to find some and explain why that would happen in the environment of the "basic" pH. I know you know a lot of Chemistry, being a Cards nurse. So, I'll try to explain it in those terms. The chemistry inside a cell does not imply "consciousness", as I see it. There is also a difference between "reflex" / "reaction", and purposeful action. If you did not have "memory", (which Pete does not), then ["input information" referenced to memory" + emotion, (reflexive input) + a few other things] does NOT obtain "consciousness". The question is, "why does consciousness arise form the molecular level of complexity. There appears to be no other examples of it. Do you think an IBM computer with "sensory input" referenced to a large memory, would be conscious ?

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20-10-2012, 01:47 AM
 
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 02:27 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  If I may make a bold prediction, it seems like there really isn't any difference between your god/universe and my eternal universe except that you believe some essence of you continues existing as god and I believe we die and our atoms and molecules go back into the universe.

You'll likely disagree, but it seems from my point of view that there is no practical difference between your view and mine. Neither of us worship anything and neither of us feel obligated to follow prescribed rules and regulations that give shape to religions.

I disagree. I mean I totally agree with the second paragraph there, but the first one is not accurate. You believe in a material universe. I believe consciousness is the only substance that is real, and all things are made from it, including matter. You see the universe as real--I don't.

Having said that, I think we are both deep thinkers. I think it would be quite interesting to sit down in a pub and have a discussion with you, beer after beer after beer. And for all I know, you may be right.
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