God Exists
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22-02-2012, 08:58 AM
 
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 05:04 PM)Denicio Wrote:  
(21-02-2012 04:28 PM)Egor Wrote:  and I know that atheists in the scientific community want there to be no God, so they make up theories--any theory--that doesn't require a God

I told myself i would not bother with Ego anymore, but i see Palinisms like this and i shudder...and THIS is why i bother.......

WHO are these atheists in the Scientific community? Please show us where they clearly stated 'they want there to be NO god'.

Interviews, books that they authored, blog posts where they are clearly the poster....just have to see an atheist claiming this.

Hell, even AaronRa says he hopes there is something else out there. Dan Barker has claimed as much.

WHO are these Atheist Scientists you claim said this? Please share with us the direct quotes. And what are these "Any Theory" they pull out of thier ass to use as a way to replace god?

D

Guys, i would NOT engage with Egor till he gives us this exhaustive list of Atheist in the scientific community that DONT want there to be a god.

See my reply above and insist, everyone insist that he name his sources, share books, links and any other info on his honest quest for info (ahem, cough).
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22-02-2012, 09:01 AM
RE: God Exists
(22-02-2012 01:40 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(22-02-2012 01:34 AM)bemore Wrote:  If that is the case then why is the institute/corporation you associate yourself with and your "god" so hippocritical????
Veridicanism?

Sorry, bemore, but I don't get it either. In what way is it being hypocritical? It just sounds like an un-evidenced assertion.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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22-02-2012, 10:10 AM
 
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 04:28 PM)Egor Wrote:  and I know that atheists in the scientific community want there to be no God, so they make up theories--any theory--that doesn't require a God


WHO are these atheists in the Scientific community? Please show us where they clearly stated 'they want there to be NO god'.

Interviews, books that they authored, blog posts where they are clearly the poster....just have to see an atheist claiming this.

WHO are these Atheist Scientists you claim said this? Please share with us the direct quotes. And what are these "Any Theories" they pull out of thier ass to use as a way to replace god?

DO you have an answer to this? OR are you, yet again, just making this shit up?

The forum is awaiting your thoughtful and insightful answers.

D
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22-02-2012, 10:54 AM
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 09:06 AM)Egor Wrote:  There's a difference between pantheism and monism.

No, goofus, there isn't. That's like saying there's a difference between black people and humans. Monism is a form of pantheism. Monism IS pantheism.

You have combined Jesus, pantheism, and Hinduism.

Everything is made from God (monistic pantheism).
We are to be like Christ (Jesus).
We can ultimately become Christ who is divine (Hinduism).

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22-02-2012, 12:55 PM
 
RE: God Exists
(22-02-2012 01:45 AM)bemore Wrote:  Is this your website???

http://www.blackspiritpublishing.com/

Also this as well.......

http://thebelieversrevolt.blogspot.com/

.......it lists the places that you "hang out" and the thinking atheist forum is one of them.

Yes, those are my websites. Blackspiritpublishing.com and Veridican.com go to the same site. What’s your point?

(22-02-2012 02:23 AM)yosemitesam Wrote:  
(22-02-2012 12:50 AM)Egor Wrote:  I am convinced God exists primarily because I don’t believe...

My second reason is the connection I feel...

My third reason is answered prayers...

Fifth, my life seems...
...but I see it in other people, too. As if their life is a story that was invented and played out...

So, these are my reasons, and I’m being as honest as I can be. Of course, I have psychological motivations as well. I have guilt that needs to be resolved, existential angst I can’t deal with any other way, and a need to make sense of suffering.

These are not necessarily good arguments for the existence of God, but they condition my mind to believe...

Thank you for making crystal clear your reasons for believing. The words I put in bold are your "evidence", which might be enough for you, but don't really say anything empirically. And the last 3 statements about guilt, your need to make sense of suffering and being conditioned are just your personal way of arriving at answers to questions you have trouble with. But all of this doesn't really add up to "God exists" anywhere but in your own mind, as far as I can see.


So? I was asked my reasons for believing. Those are my reasons. They’re not intended to make you believe; they are intended to make me believe. At the same time, if they don’t make you believe, that doesn’t mean God doesn’t exist. I’ll say it for the zillionth time whether you believe or not does not change the fact that God either exists or does not exist.

(22-02-2012 08:36 AM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  
(22-02-2012 12:50 AM)Egor Wrote:  Let’s talk about “we.” What do you mean by that?
We = people.
You’re being evasive. How can “we” do anything about our brain? How can “we” be fooled by our brain. What is being “fooled” in that scenario?
(22-02-2012 08:51 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  I am consistent, and it's maddening because you're not. I don't believe that everything that comes into existence has a "cause", because this creates an infinite regress (such as with gods, which couldn't have been "caused" to exist). So why don't I believe that God "causes" anything to exist if I don't believe that anything requires a "cause" to exist? Consistency.

So what is your reason that "contigent things" have to have a "cause of their existence"? Because "no one" would agree with me (except the source I cited, obviously, and others). And then you make an ad hominem attack against anyone who would agree with me, claiming that they're "making shit up" even if they have academic credentials (what source could even make an effective argument with you if even credentials don't matter to you?) and then simply asserting that your view is "fact".

Perhaps we are at an impasse. Because I can’t accept things simply existing for no reason whatsoever, unless that thing is God—which is the only possible exception. And I realize that may not seem intellectually fair, but there can’t be an infinite regress of causes, so something has to exist without a cause—but for that something to be unconscious matter, doesn’t make sense to me. Especially, when we seem to have evidence that all matter in this universe began at the big bang.

Quote:Look, I draw on our shared experience (we've never observed creatio ex nihilo, which is what you must assume happened to make the cosmological argument) and cite experts. This is evidence. You're simply asserting your point of view, and making personal attacks against anyone who doesn't share it. Do you see the problem here? If you don't want to check out my sources, that's okay --- but for the sake of plagiarism, I'm going to cite people whose words and ideas I would otherwise be stealing.
Fine. But just to clarify, I told you this before, I don’t believe in creatio ex nihilo. I do not believe it is possible for God to make something out of nothing. He either creates from His substance, or He doesn’t create. I generally don’t like saying God can’t do something, but there are a few things my mind just won’t accept like God causing Himself to not exist, or God creating something that is other than Himself. So, I don’t think God created the universe out of nothing.

Quote:You're just asserting this again. Despite believing that God is "basically just imagining this universe", you haven't given evidence that something physical can be created by non-physical processes. We may see things imagined into existence by dreams, but these things are imaginary by definition --- it's where the word comes from --- as opposed to real. We are not imaginary, so this evidence from experience isn't actually experience with the concept that you envision.

I guess I have to keep repeating myself: a dream is a model, not the real thing. But if there is a God, and if God created the universe, the only way it could logically happen is in the same way we create things in a lucid dream. God has to be monistic in His nature; everything necessarily must come from his substance, and the only model I know of like that in our collective experience is the lucid dream. So I figure it’s a model for creation. In other words, the universe is imaginary. Not to you and me! We’re part of the universe. And again in the dream model, a dream character would sense the dream universe as real not imaginary. But to God, the physical universe is imaginary. The actual term for this point of view, by the way, is acosmic monism.

Quote:Please stop making assertions, and propose a mechanism by which real things can be imagined into existence if this is what you want me to believe can and does happen.

Real things cannot be imagined into existence. If God could do that, then dualism would be true, and dualism is absurd (By the way, there is actually a positive argument for atheism against the Christian God in that axiom.).

Egor Wrote:Well, alright. Now that’s what we’re here for. I’m all in.
I am convinced God exists primarily because I don’t believe my mind is part of my body. This is more an argument for my soul, but it implies that I am part of a fundamental consciousness that began before I did as a human being. I also see this in my observations of protozoan behavior, and I have had dramatic examples of precognition.

My second reason is the connection I feel with an “other.” I conclude that other is my higher self, and I communicate with it back and forth on a regular basis.

My third reason is answered prayers.

My forth reason is all the stuff (arguments, observations, etc) that makes me think the opposite, that God does not exist, is impossible.

Fifth, my life seems to have a purpose to it. I seem to be on a path that makes stuff that happened when I was seven make sense. Now, it could be that I have ended up on this path because of the events of my life, but I see it in other people, too. As if their life is a story that was invented and played out.

Starcrash Wrote:Just assertions again. But let me shoot them down anyway.

How fucking immature can you be? Or is it desperation? At any rate, have at it. Maybe you can make me an atheist.

Quote:The soul has never been located in the body. Worse, evidence against a single mind has been found in patients with a damaged corpus collosum in their brains. In these patients, each hemisphere of the brain can be interrogated separately, and we've found at least one case where somebody believes in God with one half of their brain and doesn't believe in God with the other half (if you don't want to read the citation, that's fine, but I don't expect you to take me on faith --- I don't just assert things as fact).

I agree. The soul is not in the body. That other stuff you mentioned has nothing to do with the soul.

Quote:The problem with feeling a connection with an "other" is that people's feelings are manipulated and fooled on a regular basis. This connection can't be tested or verified, and it's safe that say that it's no more convincing to me than my "feeling we're alone in the universe" is convincing to you.

Whatever, that has nothing to do with the existence of God one way or the other. I just said it’s one of my reasons for believing God is there. I could be wrong about it, of course. But whatever…it still has nothing to do with God’s existence. My sense of God does not make God exist—He either exists or he doesn’t.

Quote:Third, prayers fail scientific tests. People who offer prayers can never make predictions about how their prayers will be answered, so there's no way to confirm if a prayer is answered by purpose or by random chance, but tests verify that random chance is the more accurate model.

But I’ve had some really important prayers answered. I have had some really major things resolved after praying about them. You can site whatever NYT article you want, but that fact is not going to change. And again, you asked why I believe. You didn’t stipulate that I could only say the things that would also make you believe. Maybe God won’t answer your prayers. Maybe you’re condemned to atheism. Judas was created to be condemned. Maybe you were, too. If that is the case, you would never see prayer working, would you?

Quote:Fourth, if you're going to assert that a universe without a God is impossible, you have to give at least one reason why. Remember how I told you that picturing a universe with a God is hypothetical? If you believe that there is a God in this universe, then picturing a universe without one is equally hypothetical. You can draw logical conclusions based on how such a universe would look, but you have to at least try to do that much.

Are you saying I have to try to imagine a universe without God? Okay, I can do that, but then all my reasoning for the universe existing becomes magical thinking. Because I have to assume it exists for no reason at all—and that’s the definition of magical thinking.

Quote:Fifth, my life has purpose too without a God. I love my daughter and live to give her a good life and proper upbringing, one in which she suffers very little and is generally happy and healthy. I try to be the best I can at my career. I spend a lot of time learning and applying knowledge. I don't need a God for purpose, and neither do you... you just don't know it yet.

That’s a made up purpose. That’s like existential masturbation. I’m talking about a real purpose that you as a unique individual in the universe were created to fulfill, a reason why your Creator made you. Same goes for your daughter. Now, perhaps you are condemned to be an atheist, so perhaps your only purpose was to sire your daughter and raise her up, because perhaps she or some future person in your lineage will do something God intends. As for your career, that could be the purpose you were created for, I don’t dispute that. But you would say you chose it. You would contend you create your own purpose for existence, but that’s absurd. If we live in a Godless, purposeless universe, no one has any purpose. Not in the way I see a purpose anyway.

Quote:There's a reason why I believe that you don't believe in all gods --- they're mutually exclusive. For example, Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, while Christians believe he was a God. You can't hold both beliefs simultaneously, and Muslims wouldn't let you if you could --- they believe that worship of the Christian God (or any rival God) is apostasy and deserves death.

What does that have to do with me or what I believe? I’m a Veridican; I believe God is monistic in nature. Everything is made from the substance of God, so all gods are revelations of God—some better some worse. The Veridican revelation being the best—of course.

Quote: To redefine their gods is to be dishonest about your belief in their gods.
You may have a point there. But that would be their problem, not mine. But I see what you’re saying. If I believed in their version of God the way they do, I would hold their belief exclusively, and who am I to change their definition of God? Nevertheless, I do believe in their gods to the extent I am capable—in my opinion.

(22-02-2012 10:54 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  No, goofus, there isn't. That's like saying there's a difference between black people and humans. Monism is a form of pantheism. Monism IS pantheism.

Why you are playing the race card is unimaginable to me. As for monism and pantheism, I’ve tried to explain it to you. You can’t seem to grasp it. But I’ll try another example for the benefit of others who might be reading.

This is from Webster’s collegiate dictionary, 11th Edition. I am using the first definitions:

Pantheism: A doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe.

Monism: A view that there is only one kind of ultimate substance.

Technically, they aren’t even close in definition. They aren’t even the same thing. I will also add that I derive a lot of my thinking on monism from the philosophy of Spinoza. I also derive a lot of it from my contemplation of God as Brahman in the Hindu religion, especially in regards to acosmic monism. But of course Jesus Christ talked of God both monistically and dualistically, which has lead me to my ultimate beliefs that there is an apparent dualism inherent in any creative act—but going back to acosmic monism, that dualism is fundamentally illusory.

KC, you are out of your depth in this subject. You sound just like a Christian who is threatened by monism, which you should be, because as I have alluded to, there is a positive atheistic argument against the standard Islamic-Judeo-Christian concept of God that comes from the absurdity of dualism. Why do you think I’m not a Christian anymore?

The good news (literally) is that one need not throw out the baby with the bath water. In fact, the teachings of Jesus Christ only make sense from a monistic perspective. God only makes sense from a monistic perspective. One can walk away from Christianity and find they have finally found God and Christ. That’s what Veridicanism is all about.

Wake up, KC. Atheism is going to suck the blood from the Christian religion. But Veridicanism is the spider than then catches that mosquito in its web.

But what does the final trumpet sound? “goofus.”
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22-02-2012, 01:07 PM
RE: God Exists
(22-02-2012 12:55 PM)Egor Wrote:  But I’ve had some really important prayers answered. I have had some really major things resolved after praying about them. You can site whatever NYT article you want, but that fact is not going to change. And again, you asked why I believe. You didn’t stipulate that I could only say the things that would also make you believe. Maybe God won’t answer your prayers. Maybe you’re condemned to atheism. Judas was created to be condemned. Maybe you were, too. If that is the case, you would never see prayer working, would you?
The problem here is that you're using the...
Event A occurs
Event B occurs at the same relative time
Therefore, Event A and Event B must be linked somehow
... equation.

I sneezed on 9/11/01
The Twin Towers fell on 9/11/01
Therefore, my sneezing caused the Twin Towers to fall.

Unless your hypothesis is testable, repeatable, and predictable, it's nothing but conjecture and guesswork on your part.

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22-02-2012, 01:15 PM
 
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 04:28 PM)Egor Wrote:  and I know that atheists in the scientific community want there to be no God, so they make up theories--any theory--that doesn't require a God

Egor...come out and play.....Egor...come out and play.... whats a matter big guy? Did your fingers write a check that your ASS cant cash???


WHO are these atheists in the Scientific community? Please show us where they clearly stated 'they want there to be NO god'.

Interviews, books that they authored, blog posts where they are clearly the poster....just have to see an atheist claiming this.

WHO are these Atheist Scientists you claim said this? Please share with us the direct quotes. And what are these "Any Theories" they pull out of thier ass to use as a way to replace god?

DO you have an answer to this? OR are you, yet again, just making this shit up?

The forum is awaiting your thoughtful and insightful answers.

D
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22-02-2012, 04:53 PM
RE: God Exists
KS was not playing the race card, he/she gave a brilliant example of your flawed logic.

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Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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22-02-2012, 05:04 PM
RE: God Exists
Egor, if it walks like a duck and quacks likes a duck, it's probably a duck.

You can call it whatever you want to call it, but it's still pantheism.

More quacking ducks.

Also... smh at the "race card". I refuse to believe you're that dense.

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22-02-2012, 06:47 PM
RE: God Exists
(22-02-2012 12:55 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(22-02-2012 08:36 AM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  
(22-02-2012 12:50 AM)Egor Wrote:  Let’s talk about “we.” What do you mean by that?
We = people.
You’re being evasive. How can “we” do anything about our brain? How can “we” be fooled by our brain. What is being “fooled” in that scenario?

I'm being evasive. Says the guy who deflects my question with one of his own. Ok.

Our brains are fueled by a steady stream of chemicals and hormones, and as I mentioned before, are very susceptible to a plethora of glitches, problems, and false perceptions. Our personal experiences are constantly clouded and manipulated by things like personal biases, confirmation bias, false or tweaked memories, and made-up input, amongst other things. Our sight and other senses are easily deceived. We can hear things that aren't there (or the reverse: not hear things when we are distracted.) We see things that aren't there, or again the reverse: miss things that are right in front of us.

The way we can do something about this, and fight against it, is by using the scientific method to examine reality and determine what is real. The scientific method is the best tool we've come up with for figuring out what is true and what isn't.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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