God Exists
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19-02-2012, 03:30 PM
RE: God Exists
(19-02-2012 03:00 PM)Egor Wrote:  No, see that's not a debate. That's just an ad hominem attack from a lazy agnostic skeptic. You can wait for the book, as far as I'm concerned. You don't challenge my beliefs at all. Which means, as far as I'm concerned, you have nothing; therefore, my explanation is better.

Nevertheless, I will use your post to further this a bit:

This being is necessarily eternal, and is the necessary cause of the universe. Furthermore, He is the sustainer of the existence of the universe.

The universe may have existed forever, in which case there is no cause and no causer.
The universe doesn't require a sustainer, it gets along just fine on its own.

The scientific view of the universe does not require a supreme being to be consistent and explanatory. Not everything is known. It's OK for something to not (yet) have an explanation; we don't have to make something up.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-02-2012, 03:31 PM
RE: God Exists
(19-02-2012 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-02-2012 03:18 PM)Ben Wrote:  
(19-02-2012 02:46 PM)Egor Wrote:  
God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

By monistic he means that everything in the universe is made of God.

He seems basically to be saying that God is the universe and the universe is conscious.

In other words, 1st Century Gnosticism.

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19-02-2012, 04:15 PM
RE: God Exists
The truth claim: God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness

First we need to define consciousness. Not that hard to do in several stages. This is an explanation many have heard before, but apparently necessary to dispute a truth claim that consciousness could not exist without God. If consciousness can exist without God, then your claim of God existing because it is necessary to exist to have consciousness is false.

First, we are mobile avoiders, just like so many other animals of the animal kingdom. We started out as very primitive avoiders. The better avoiders avoided being eaten and the predators evolved better at catching prey. The senses evolved, especially sight, as advanced ways to keep from being eaten and to catch prey. Notice that prey animals have the eye’s position on the sides of their head to have a better 360 degree view and the predators have forward facing stereo vision to judge distance and trajectory.

The better prey avoiders and hunter predators started developing larger brains which aided processing the senses better, and as a side benefit this larger sensory processor starting to develop a few interesting characteristics. First was probably short term memory, then later longer to long term memory. A predator or prey being able to learn had a distinct advantage over a purely reactionary one.
Once memory was established (I’ll just call them animals now) began to have a sense of self. We see this today in all forms of higher level mammals. Dogs, cats, dolphins, parrots, are very self-aware can recognize their names when called and understand their position in a social group.

Next comes imagination. This is where we state to see two similar events and imagine a third. We become pattern seeking animals and the better imaginations survive to evolve. Our imaginations evolve to the point that we start to ask question of our own existence.

Now put senses, memory, self-awareness, and imagination and you have what we perceive as “consciousness”, which in of itself is an illusion. On this we base the belief in free will. We could imagine a creator so we did and we called him God.

Where is the God in this equation? In our imaginations only.
If we add fear of death, and fear of other humans killing us, natural disasters, starvation, etc., you get the basis for “Social Beliefs” or “Religion”, which answers everything, while it answers nothing at all.

The claim of the need for monistic entity of fundamental consciousness is not necessary for us to understand where consciousness comes from or why the world is the way it is. There is no God and no justifiable reason to believe that there is. The world can be explained quite easily without a Supreme Being necessary to hold it all together or have created it in the first instance.

As we have killed religion, so we have killed God along with your argument for God.

What other proof might you claim?
I'm just getting warmed up.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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19-02-2012, 04:20 PM
RE: God Exists
(19-02-2012 02:46 PM)Egor Wrote:  
God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness.

I don't agree with the above statement, because I find no evidence for or proof of it, and therefore can not claim it to be true.
Though I can not state for certain, I may have some inconsequential evidence that the following statement may, or may not be true:

God is Egor's monistic entity of fundamental consciousness.

Now you have a somewhat vaguely valid statement from which to work.

Feel free to proceed with your gibberish. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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19-02-2012, 04:32 PM
RE: God Exists
Test for God's existence.

Igor should parachute out of a plane and make no attempt to pull the parachute cord. Somewhere along the way God will have to pull it or Igor goes splat.

This is a win-win for any Christian.

They get living proof of Gods existence, or they get to go to heaven and meet God.

There was a guy who tried this in a lions gage at a zoo. We was completely convinced that God would protect him and he would have video proof that God is involved and real in our lives. Unfortunately the loins killed him. The sad part is that the loin had to be put down by law. But…he (the crazy christian) is with God now. Maybe the lion too.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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19-02-2012, 04:33 PM
RE: God Exists
(19-02-2012 03:31 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(19-02-2012 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-02-2012 03:18 PM)Ben Wrote:  
(19-02-2012 02:46 PM)Egor Wrote:  
God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

By monistic he means that everything in the universe is made of God.

He seems basically to be saying that God is the universe and the universe is conscious.

In other words, 1st Century Gnosticism.

What's the difference between that and Pantheism?

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19-02-2012, 04:36 PM
RE: God Exists
(19-02-2012 04:33 PM)KVron Wrote:  
(19-02-2012 03:31 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(19-02-2012 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-02-2012 03:18 PM)Ben Wrote:  
(19-02-2012 02:46 PM)Egor Wrote:  
God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

By monistic he means that everything in the universe is made of God.

He seems basically to be saying that God is the universe and the universe is conscious.

In other words, 1st Century Gnosticism.

What's the difference between that and Pantheism?

Not a whole lot except for certain nuances, like Gnosticism purporting to require secret knowledge to gain salvation. I'm not sure if straight Pantheism has a salvation component.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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19-02-2012, 04:37 PM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2012 04:43 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: God Exists
(19-02-2012 02:46 PM)Egor Wrote:  God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness.

Leibniz tried this route more than 3 centuries ago. Somehow I doubt you got the trailblazing skills to get farther than he did.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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19-02-2012, 04:41 PM
RE: God Exists
(19-02-2012 04:37 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(19-02-2012 02:46 PM)Egor Wrote:  God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness.

Leibniz tried this more than 3 centuries ago. Somehow I doubt you're gonna have better luck with it than he did.

Are you Rasputin now, Girly?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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19-02-2012, 04:50 PM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2012 08:43 PM by Reactor.)
RE: God Exists
Egor, do you got any obligations to this god, like praying or sacrificing?
Also, why do you believe in this god?
Can this god interact with us or the world in general?

Edit: Fixed first sentence to make sense and added a third one
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