God Exists
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20-02-2012, 03:08 AM
RE: God Exists
(20-02-2012 02:06 AM)Egor Wrote:  The whole purpose of this discussion is to prove God exists. I finally do what no other theists seems willing to do, in that I define God first, so that we can actually debate the existence of such a being.

I have heard many theists define god. They all define god in their own way. Many of the definitions disagree with each other, and many disagree with your definition. What makes you so sure that those definitions of god that disagree with you definition are wrong and yours is right?

If god exists and you can define him/her/it, I would expect that the majority of theists would come to very unanimous definition of this god, but they don't.
Quote:As a thought experiment, consider this: You have a lucid dream, and in the dream you have a glass of water. You dump out the water and smash the glass, then you take a piece of glass and crush it to dust, then to molecules, then to atoms, then to quarks, and then when you got below that all you would find is yourself, your own consciousness.

I have tried this thought experiment. I have not come up with the same results that you claim to have. Once I got to sub atomic particles there was no sign of myself or a conciousness. To prove your case, or at least have evidence for such case, the experiment must be repeatable so that others can verify your data. This is not verifiable. Your case for god has no evidence, and definitely no proof.

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
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20-02-2012, 03:14 AM
RE: God Exists
Egor, you are making this up.

Kthxbie =)

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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20-02-2012, 03:28 AM
RE: God Exists
(20-02-2012 03:14 AM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  Egor, you are making this up.

Yes but he already admits that. Big Grin
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20-02-2012, 04:26 AM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2012 04:30 AM by znk666.)
RE: God Exists
In order to make a factual statement,you must have proper evidence to prove it.
(20-02-2012 02:06 AM)Egor Wrote:  I was driving into work today and it was raining. And I realized that God was conscious of every raindrop. In fact, he's conscious of every molecule of air, and every star in the universe, at all times.

Where do you get so much certainty?
Where's evidence to prove your statement?
Where's any logic to assume god is in every single molecule?
Where's anything to prove in the least that god exists?

The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism.
-Karl Marx

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20-02-2012, 05:58 AM
RE: God Exists
(19-02-2012 11:32 PM)Egor Wrote:  What is time? Does time even exist in reality. Some would say it doesn’t. I am one of those. Time is just an illusion based on the relative motions of objects in the universe, and even that motion is illusory, for things are really not going anywhere when they move.

This I can agree with you.

(20-02-2012 02:06 AM)Egor Wrote:  I suppose we are His person, or at least we are when we become Christ, which is God conscious of Himself from within His creation. We try to understand him by seeing his revelation in people--like Jesus Christ, but that's a topic for another conversation.

Please....we dont need the bible or any religion to openly debate nor "prove the unproveable".....if anything they hold you back.

To me personally I dont look at any religion as a way of "connecting" because the only thing you can ever really hope to achieve with connecting is yourself. Using a "middle man" like religion I suppose will bring insights to some degree.......as long as you are willing to study ALL of them in equal detail and only use there terms metaphorically.

Thinking.....thoughts......conciousness......you are in concious control (I believeConfused) of all of these to some degree.....you are your "own" god ....judge ..... devil.....saviour.... teacher.....carer...... soulmate ...... all rolled into one ultimatley.

Religous texts dont provide answers....they can provide insight but YOU provide the answers and it is "written" into you subconciously from then on.....who else can better describe this personal insight/way that we all see life but ourselves. And how could we achieve to "prove" this outlook without looking for things in the outside world.....as describing thoughts/feelings can take a lifetime.

If you truely wish to explore "conciousness" then take different drugs safely once in your life..take acid...feel "love" with E.....chill out with weed...get drunk once (obviously dont do all these at the same time :angelSmile

There are HUNDREDS of different ways and methods of meditating.....exploring this "reality" in many different ways and changing your "conciousness" but all of them ultimatley look within YOU for the provider of answers and insight.

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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20-02-2012, 08:26 AM
RE: God Exists
(19-02-2012 02:46 PM)Egor Wrote:  I believe God as defined below exists and exists necessarily. I'm willing to pull out all the stops if there is anyone out there willing to take on the debate and argue that this God is not necessary.

I would say, given the limits of human knowledge, I'd be willing to settle for just an agreement that such a being is more likely to exist than not. But if anyone is capable of shooting down my faith in God, I want to experience that. So, here it is:

God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness.

This being the case He existed prior to the universe, everything in the universe is made from His substance, and that substance is ultimately consciousness.

If you agree with me, please let me know. If you don't, please say why.


That's your answer. Really.

You may wish to go actually read your bible. It in no way supports the ideas of a Pantheist reality. Do you even know what your arguing?
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20-02-2012, 09:20 AM
RE: God Exists
(19-02-2012 02:46 PM)Egor Wrote:  
God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness.

I don't exist. I'm a simulation in the mind of primate, carved from the written word and directed evolution, but I am the director and I forget. Wink

Linear time ain't quite right; I ain't nothing without my Gwynnies; You. The Patriarchy no longer applies.

living word
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20-02-2012, 09:54 AM
RE: God Exists
(19-02-2012 09:31 PM)Egor Wrote:  I believe there is direct evidence for the existence of this fundamental consciousness.
And this would be where? You realize that believing evidence exists and actually presenting evidence are two different things, right?

(19-02-2012 09:31 PM)Egor Wrote:  I believe experiments that have been done, and that I have done myself, with paramecium show that consciousness is not a product of any kind of nervous system, and in fact consciousness is apparent in these creatures and they have no conceivable way to generate it. Meaning that the consciousness must be external to them.
And these experiments you've done - where are the findings and your method at? Have these experiments been submitted to peer review? Are they testable and repeatable? Where are the experiments you've read about?

What little research I've read indicates that all consciousness is the by-product of a physical brain. People with brain trauma can develop completely different personalities - sometimes within the same brain. They forget entire chunks of memories, or their entire lives. They lose cognitive functions. Depending on the damage, sometimes they don't come back at all. The person that they were no longer exists. Split-brain patients can hold two completely opposing viewpoints, including one side being theist and another atheist. We have never been given evidence of consciousness existing without a physical brain - so yours would be the first. Where is your evidence?

(19-02-2012 09:31 PM)Egor Wrote:  Furthermore, is precognitive experiences that many people, including myself, have had. There is no way to dispute them, and there is no way they could be possible from a natural process, given that they represent knowledge of a future occurance that has not happened yet.
Precognitive experience appears to be a load of malarkey. Memories change on a regular basis - our personal experiences, dreams, thoughts, all of it - are highly susceptible to outside influence. Lots of times we make shit up in our own heads. We remember things wrong all the time. Humans are extremely susceptible to confirmation bias and forced pattern recognition, even when there are no patterns. Someone has a dream about a plane flying into a building before September 11, 2001 - did they really just predict the future? Or is their brain recycling something they saw in a movie, or read in a book, or just made up on their own? Or maybe, they saw the terrorist attacks on tv, and then remembered they had some dream about a plane... and then you can just make the rest up from there and convince yourself that you had a dream about a plane that flew into the WTC and killed a lot of people. You don't do it on purpose (well, maybe some do, like "psychics" who need to make a living), you're just trying to make sense of a tragedy. How would you test that?

(19-02-2012 09:31 PM)Egor Wrote:  These two repeatable phenomena are, in my opinion, the same kind of evidence for the fundamental consciousness as the cosmic background radiation is for the big bang.
Again, you're saying things like "repeatable phenomena" but you're not showing your methods, findings, or evidence. And I just showed you that your phenomena are very explainable by modern neuroscience.

(19-02-2012 09:31 PM)Egor Wrote:  We can talk more about these. But if you are to dismiss them based merely on an atheistic bias, then no, I have no way to prove the fundamental consciousness other than through philosophical arguments and thought experiments.
I'm not dismissing them on an "atheistic bias," whatever that is, I'm dismissing them based on a lack of evidence. I guess you can call that "skeptic bias" if you want.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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20-02-2012, 10:00 AM
RE: God Exists
Egor, Is this substance of god indestructible and eternal? Is it infinite? Is the "fabric of space" made of this substance?

I need some information before I trap ya Tongue (mind trap)
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20-02-2012, 11:41 AM
RE: God Exists
I don't believe in your claims, as they have hardly any scientific foundings, nor historical.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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