God Exists
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21-02-2012, 09:32 AM
RE: God Exists
Nope sorry man if you were stating that every religion had a bit of truth to it about the same god then you would be preaching monism.

Your stating here that god is present in everything in the universe. That is Pantheism. If you see god in the trees, rain, stars, etc then that is Pantheism.

I've heard rumor that you are trying to start a new sect of Christianity so good luck with that but please double check what your preaching before you go out and preach.
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21-02-2012, 09:38 AM
 
RE: God Exists
(20-02-2012 03:07 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Time is measurable. Additionally, it is something that we commonly experience. The "some" that say it doesn't exist are not experts, and since you didn't cite a source, are anonymous. Denying time doesn't make it cease to exist. This, unlike your concept of God, is testable and verifiable through the scientific method.

This statement --- "consciousness ticks right along in this eternal present moment" --- is silly. We only observe the present with our "consciousness", but our memories still retain a record of the past. Are you denying that the past exists just because we can't "presently" observe it?

Excuse me. Are you saying the past exists? Where? We don’t need experts or peer reviewed papers and we don’t need to debate what a clock is really doing. What we need to come to an understanding of is the past. You say it exists in reality—where?

Quote:No, it's a logical fallacy, or what we call "the very opposite of a valid argument". I could just assume that the universe came from the armpit of The Flying Spaghetti Monster, but assuming something just for lack of an argument is an Argument from Ignorance.

If you feel that logical fallacies are still fine arguments and don't understand the importance of logic in a debate, I simply have nothing useful to offer you.

If you don’t understand that an argument can be faulty and still have a true conclusion then you don’t know as much as you pretend you do. Don’t patronize me.

Quote:Are you instead arguing that God created the universe out of something? Or are you arguing that God did not create the universe? I think it was a fair assumption, but feel free to correct me with your real view.

God created the universe out of His substance. That’s the difference between monism and dualism.
And I swear if you link to Wikipedia one more time…

Quote:Let me make this clear - just because a word is a noun and we talk about it as if it is a "thing" does not make it a thing. Consciousness and dreams are concepts, not material items. They don't make physical things, and that includes us.
I agree with your statement that consciousness is not a material thing. And I only bring up dreams as a model of reality. I’m not saying my dreams are an alternate universe where things are going on and my consciousness goes to visit there. I’ll leave the magic of alternate universes to the cosmologists.
However, if God exists, God necessarily exists. This being the case, God must be fundamentally monistic and conscious. There is nothing else He can be. Therefore, this universe has to be like a lucid dream He is having, or more accurately creating.

Quote:You say that you don't know how to prove it, and that's a problem. I originally engaged you because, in the thread entitled "You Have Nothing to Add", you said "I can make a positive case for God". But you haven't done that, and now you're claiming that your entire case comes down to simply announcing what you believe and having us take you on faith. Do you see why that's useless? We're not asking you to take us on faith, nor would we expect you to do that. Make a case, or just admit it's a belief based on just faith and nothing more.

Well, you’re the one that’s led me off on this tangent. I started this thread to debate the existence of God, and I started with a definition. Right now, we are debating the substance of God, which is part of the definition. Can I assume then that you believe there is some kind of God? If not, let’s back up and debate the existence of God in general. If so, I will probably move my first pawn, which is the cosmological argument.

(21-02-2012 08:56 AM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  I realize it's useless to engage certain people, unless you are getting something out of it. I don't for a second think I'll change Egor's mind about anything, but what I get is practice at making myself and my views understood.

Then I'll give you a tip. When someone says, "I've had a unique life-changing experience." It doesn't really work to reply, "That's a bunch of malarkie, and neuroscience has proved it."


(21-02-2012 09:32 AM)Godless Wrote:  Nope sorry man if you were stating that every religion had a bit of truth to it about the same god then you would be preaching monism.

That would be "monotheism"

Quote:Your stating here that god is present in everything in the universe. That is Pantheism. If you see god in the trees, rain, stars, etc then that is Pantheism.

I've heard rumor that you are trying to start a new sect of Christianity so good luck with that but please double check what your preaching before you go out and preach.

Monism says that there is nothing except God.

Pantheism says that everything is God.

A monist would say my coffee cup is made from God's substance (as is everything else)

A pantheist would say, God is made from my coffee cup (and everything else)

It is a subtle difference, I admit. But it is a very important difference. Philosophically, logically, spiritually, theologically, it is a huge difference.
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21-02-2012, 10:19 AM
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 09:38 AM)Egor Wrote:  Monism says that there is nothing except God.

So...kind of like The Force!

Only...not the good kind:

[Image: tumblr_lxmqjxkCbM1qedua2o1_500.gif]

Egor finally reveals his true face. Big Grin

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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21-02-2012, 12:51 PM
RE: God Exists
You claimed that "everything in the universe is made from His substance" so whats your position about antimatter and the fact that it can destroy matter which is God's substance?
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21-02-2012, 01:29 PM
 
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 12:51 PM)Reactor Wrote:  You claimed that "everything in the universe is made from His substance" so whats your position about antimatter and the fact that it can destroy matter which is God's substance?

What comes from antiparticle/particle interactions? And when did I ever say that matter was God's substance? Consciousness is God's substance.
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21-02-2012, 02:18 PM
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 01:29 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(21-02-2012 12:51 PM)Reactor Wrote:  You claimed that "everything in the universe is made from His substance" so whats your position about antimatter and the fact that it can destroy matter which is God's substance?

What comes from antiparticle/particle interactions? And when did I ever say that matter was God's substance? Consciousness is God's substance.

Ahm maybe there is a misunderstanding. What exactly do you mean by "His substance"? I thought you meant the material from which god is made.
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21-02-2012, 02:39 PM
 
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 02:18 PM)Reactor Wrote:  Ahm maybe there is a misunderstanding. What exactly do you mean by "His substance"? I thought you meant the material from which god is made.

God is consciousness. He is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness. He is not the material universe. That would be pantheism. However, the material universe is made from His substance, which means that everything is actually a product of consciousness.

The question is whether or not that can be proved.
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21-02-2012, 02:39 PM
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 02:18 PM)Reactor Wrote:  
(21-02-2012 01:29 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(21-02-2012 12:51 PM)Reactor Wrote:  You claimed that "everything in the universe is made from His substance" so whats your position about antimatter and the fact that it can destroy matter which is God's substance?

What comes from antiparticle/particle interactions? And when did I ever say that matter was God's substance? Consciousness is God's substance.

Ahm maybe there is a misunderstanding. What exactly do you mean by "His substance"? I thought you meant the material from which god is made.

I thought the same. You may need to clarify Egor, if we are in essence a lucid dream (I know, used as a metaphor) then wouldn't everything in relation to the dream be a part of God? Including the matter?

Perhaps I'm trying to imagine this in too limited a way, but I don't quite understand what you're saying "matter" is.
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21-02-2012, 02:44 PM
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 09:32 AM)Godless Wrote:  Nope sorry man if you were stating that every religion had a bit of truth to it about the same god then you would be preaching monism.

Your stating here that god is present in everything in the universe. That is Pantheism. If you see god in the trees, rain, stars, etc then that is Pantheism.

I've heard rumor that you are trying to start a new sect of Christianity so good luck with that but please double check what your preaching before you go out and preach.

Maybe Veridican is going to be Panmontheism or Monpantheism. It's probably so new, he hasn't decided what kind of God gets first billing.

Will it be ... one-in-all Gods, or all-in-all God?

Try Veridican for your all-in-all God!
That's a good commercial tag line... I'll expect royalties if I ever see that in print anywhere but here. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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21-02-2012, 03:21 PM
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 02:39 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(21-02-2012 02:18 PM)Reactor Wrote:  Ahm maybe there is a misunderstanding. What exactly do you mean by "His substance"? I thought you meant the material from which god is made.

God is consciousness. He is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness. He is not the material universe. That would be pantheism. However, the material universe is made from His substance, which means that everything is actually a product of consciousness.

The question is whether or not that can be proved.

I just don't think that any potential supernatural force can be proven in the natural world unless it makes itself known in the natural world in a way that can be tested and confirmed. And in that case, wouldn't we just consider it natural rather than supernatural? Even if we currently lacked the knowledge to fully explain the phenomenon? So even that wouldn't bring us any closer to knowledge of the existence of a supernatural force. So no, I don't think it can be proven. I don't think it's a battle you can win. But once you can admit that it's possible that the world existed without God or the supernatural, God and the supernatural take a step toward becoming superfluous.
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