God Exists
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21-02-2012, 04:28 PM
 
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 03:21 PM)kineo Wrote:  
(21-02-2012 02:39 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(21-02-2012 02:18 PM)Reactor Wrote:  Ahm maybe there is a misunderstanding. What exactly do you mean by "His substance"? I thought you meant the material from which god is made.

God is consciousness. He is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness. He is not the material universe. That would be pantheism. However, the material universe is made from His substance, which means that everything is actually a product of consciousness.

The question is whether or not that can be proved.

I just don't think that any potential supernatural force can be proven in the natural world unless it makes itself known in the natural world in a way that can be tested and confirmed. And in that case, wouldn't we just consider it natural rather than supernatural?

Yes, I think so. Well said.

Quote:Even if we currently lacked the knowledge to fully explain the phenomenon? So even that wouldn't bring us any closer to knowledge of the existence of a supernatural force. So no, I don't think it can be proven. I don't think it's a battle you can win. But once you can admit that it's possible that the world existed without God or the supernatural, God and the supernatural take a step toward becoming superfluous.

See, and this isn't faith talking here, I just can't see the world existing unless it was created to exist.

Contrary to what people in here might say, I'm a pretty educated person, especially in the sciences, and I know that atheists in the scientific community want there to be no God, so they make up theories--any theory--that doesn't require a God, but those theories are just as unverifiable as trying to prove precognition to someone who's never experienced it.

For instance you can say, given this or that theory or speculation, no designer is needed. Okay, if that theory is true to begin with, it still doesn't mean there isn't a designer.

You can say we know how life began on earth, if this or that abiogenesis postulation is true, but even if it is true, that doesn't mean God doesn't exist.

In this book I'm reading, this guy talks about the negative energy of empty space and how things can pop into existince out of it. Great. He has no way of proving his theory, but there it is, and it still doesn't explain where space came from or the dynamic that allows particles to pop in and out of existence or why a singularity that pops into existence out of nothing should expand, or why all of the forces that cause it to expand should have ever been to begin with.

I know a lot of arguments for the existence of God, but I think my favorite one is the argument from existence. In a word, why should anything exist at all? The default state of non-existence, of nothingness, would be an absolute eternal barrier to all things. Ultimately, only a conscious being could create a universe.

But if a person wants to be an atheist, there's nothing to be said.
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21-02-2012, 04:42 PM
RE: God Exists
Egor just wants a reason why we're here. Like everyone else, he's decided on a reason and is now massaging it to fit the facts he actually knows (from science!) or thinks he knows (from the internet!) about the universe.

Really guys, he's just a poor misunderstood soul casting about for purpose!

Have some compassion. Wink
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21-02-2012, 04:51 PM
RE: God Exists
Egor please explain what do you mean by consciousness when you define god.
I am not too good with abstract ideas.
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21-02-2012, 05:04 PM
 
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 04:28 PM)Egor Wrote:  and I know that atheists in the scientific community want there to be no God, so they make up theories--any theory--that doesn't require a God

I told myself i would not bother with Ego anymore, but i see Palinisms like this and i shudder...and THIS is why i bother.......

WHO are these atheists in the Scientific community? Please show us where they clearly stated 'they want there to be NO god'.

Interviews, books that they authored, blog posts where they are clearly the poster....just have to see an atheist claiming this.

Hell, even AaronRa says he hopes there is something else out there. Dan Barker has claimed as much.

WHO are these Atheist Scientists you claim said this? Please share with us the direct quotes. And what are these "Any Theory" they pull out of thier ass to use as a way to replace god?

D
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21-02-2012, 05:06 PM
RE: God Exists
egor Wrote:and I know that atheists in the scientific community want there to be no God, so they make up theories--any theory--that doesn't require a God
Don't speak for atheists, you have a biased mind and cannot comprehend what we all think. (As it shows in your posts)

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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21-02-2012, 05:31 PM
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 04:28 PM)Egor Wrote:  Contrary to what people in here might say, I'm a pretty educated person, especially in the sciences, and I know that atheists in the scientific community want there to be no God, so they make up theories--any theory--that doesn't require a God, but those theories are just as unverifiable as trying to prove precognition to someone who's never experienced it.
....
But if a person wants to be an atheist, there's nothing to be said.

Well, I'd like to turn these two around on you- theists want there to be a God and so make up theories and theology that require a God.

If a person wants to be a believer, then there's nothing to be said.

However I would add this- we can look at things; postulate how something may have come to be as we know it; observe things as they are; and test to see if it's a plausible explanation and rule out competing theories. We can do this regardless of the existence of God, and God does not provide an answer to the question. God is superfluous to the question in the first place, so why add in this extra concept? It does nothing to answer the question, and only makes asking the question and searching for the answer more difficult.

(21-02-2012 04:28 PM)Egor Wrote:  I know a lot of arguments for the existence of God, but I think my favorite one is the argument from existence. In a word, why should anything exist at all? The default state of non-existence, of nothingness, would be an absolute eternal barrier to all things. Ultimately, only a conscious being could create a universe.

This doesn't really answer the question though, it only pushes it back one step further. If the default state is non-existence, then what brought forth the existence of God? To say God is eternal doesn't answer the question- because if God is eternal, then why cannot the matter that makes up the universe be eternal? We know that the Big Bang was the beginning of our known universe. But who's to say what was before that? No one can. At least not right now.
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21-02-2012, 05:45 PM
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 09:02 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(20-02-2012 03:08 AM)No J. Wrote:  I have tried this thought experiment.

You're lying. You had never even heard of it before.

OK, Egor. Even if I crush subatomic particles in a lucid dream and find my own consciousness (whatever that looks like), what the hell does that tell me?

I had a lucid dream where I flew, does that mean I can fly?
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21-02-2012, 07:19 PM
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 05:45 PM)Ben Wrote:  I had a lucid dream where I flew, does that mean I can fly?

Was it really lucid where you knew you were dreaming and could control speed, pitch, roll, and yaw? And can you do that on demand whenever you want when you're asleep? If so, then I'd say it's a tough call.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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21-02-2012, 07:23 PM
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 09:38 AM)Egor Wrote:  I started this thread to debate the existence of God, and I started with a definition. Right now, we are debating the substance of God, which is part of the definition. Can I assume then that you believe there is some kind of God? If not, let’s back up and debate the existence of God in general. If so, I will probably move my first pawn, which is the cosmological argument.

Why would you assume that I believe there is some kind of God? I think the evidence is lacking, and I was hoping you would provide some.

So you want to start with the cosmological argument. In anticipation of this, I already gave you the rebuttal of this a while ago... I don't believe that everything that comes into existence requires a cause.

God creating something out of nothing is illogical. To say that a universe that didn't exist was "caused" to exist doesn't make sense, because there was nothing for a god to act upon. I mentioned creatio ex materia, or creation from materials --- we've observed this. A chair is "caused to exist" by taking non-chair materials and re-assembling them into a chair. But we've never observed causality taking place between something existant and a non-existant object. This is best explained by one of my favorite YouTube philosophers, whose words I'm just blatantly ripping off, so I would suggest cutting out the middleman and just listening to him.

But frankly, it's probably a waste of time. When you suggest that this is your first pawn move, what you imply is that you're going to try every tactic you can to convince me, and when those arguments fail you'll just move the goalposts. I don't want to hear "an argument" for why you believe in God... I want to hear "your argument". I want to know what actually convinced you to believe, because you're not going to concede your belief even if I knock down one of these lesser arguments.

Let me make things simple (because the burden of proof is obviously too much of a burden for you) by explaining the main reason why I don't believe. I see natural causes behind everything --- everything --- that happens. I don't have to wonder, upon seeing a child get raped, how this fits into the plan of a god... these things happen because people are selfish, lacking in self-control, delusional, psychotic, or even sometimes lacking in morals. When an earthquake kills people, it's because of shifts in unstable tectonic plates. It doesn't require explaining how this fits the plan of a god. When innocent fetuses die before they even get a chance to draw a breath, it's because of miscarriages caused in the normal malfunctions of the human body or by deliberate action of the mother because of her plan, but a god's plan is not necessary to explain it.

I'm holding this up against a hypothetical control group --- there's no way to know with certainty what a universe with a god would look like. But based on the descriptions of how people view their gods, we can draw logical conclusions. If a god is said to be all-powerful and doesn't want evil to exist, then the logical inference is that we'd live in a world without the existence of evil. If a god wants everyone to know of its existence and had the power to make that happen, then everyone would know of its existence. But we don't live in that universe. We live in a world where things happen by chance, and when things don't appear to be random, we can find a natural cause. We always do, eventually.

Now you may try to make a case for why a loving god would create an unloving place like Hell, or you can give me answers about why a perfect god would create imperfect things, but your explanations are not the "best" ones... they don't make as much sense as my alternative explanation makes, that your God is the creation of man just like all of the many, many false gods are. And if you have a better explanation, then why cling to one that requires rebuttals that could come from any of the believers of false gods, too? Even they have apologies for their beliefs, and they probably sound as weak to you as they do to me.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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21-02-2012, 08:00 PM
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 07:19 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-02-2012 05:45 PM)Ben Wrote:  I had a lucid dream where I flew, does that mean I can fly?

Was it really lucid where you knew you were dreaming and could control speed, pitch, roll, and yaw? And can you do that on demand whenever you want when you're asleep? If so, then I'd say it's a tough call.

It was lucid, but I can't have a lucid dream on demand sadly. Sad
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