God Exists
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21-02-2012, 10:48 PM
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 08:00 PM)Ben Wrote:  
(21-02-2012 07:19 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-02-2012 05:45 PM)Ben Wrote:  I had a lucid dream where I flew, does that mean I can fly?

Was it really lucid where you knew you were dreaming and could control speed, pitch, roll, and yaw? And can you do that on demand whenever you want when you're asleep? If so, then I'd say it's a tough call.

It was lucid, but I can't have a lucid dream on demand sadly. Sad

Let us know if you figure that out. I mean I'm still working at it.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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21-02-2012, 11:21 PM
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 09:38 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(21-02-2012 08:56 AM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  I realize it's useless to engage certain people, unless you are getting something out of it. I don't for a second think I'll change Egor's mind about anything, but what I get is practice at making myself and my views understood.

Then I'll give you a tip. When someone says, "I've had a unique life-changing experience." It doesn't really work to reply, "That's a bunch of malarkie, and neuroscience has proved it."

Oh for fuck's sake, that's not what I said.

The point is that your "life-changing experience" is not, nor should it be, evidence for anyone else to believe in your god, and it does not appear that you can offer it as evidence of anything.

Neuroscience hasn't "proved it," but it has offered an alternative explanation for things such as psychic phenomena, esp, precognition, and things of that nature.

Again, if you would like to demonstrate how or why your experience(s) should be or could be used as evidence in demonstrating that your god exists - WE'RE ALL WAITING.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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22-02-2012, 12:50 AM
 
RE: God Exists
(21-02-2012 05:31 PM)kineo Wrote:  This doesn't really answer the question though, it only pushes it back one step further. If the default state is non-existence, then what brought forth the existence of God?

Sorry. I meant if there was no God, the default state would be non-existence.

Quote: To say God is eternal doesn't answer the question- because if God is eternal, then why cannot the matter that makes up the universe be eternal? We know that the Big Bang was the beginning of our known universe. But who's to say what was before that? No one can. At least not right now.

Maybe, but we can know a few things: There cannot be an infinite regress of causes for our universe, even if it is born from other universes. We also know that it can't expand, collapse, expand, collapse eternally, because that would require God more than even the way it is right now--otherwise we'd be left with magical thinking. We also know that there is complex order in the structures of the universe. All of these things lead us to conclusions about God and His necessary existence.

And you're right. I want to be a theist. I don't want to be an atheist. But whatever we want, as I'm sure you would agree, has nothing to do with the absolute truth of the following zero-sum statement: Either God exists or God does not exist.


(21-02-2012 11:21 PM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  Again, if you would like to demonstrate how or why your experience(s) should be or could be used as evidence in demonstrating that your god exists - WE'RE ALL WAITING.

Nah, forget all that. There's time for that. I'd like to discuss your signature. It even bears repeating:

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.

Let’s talk about “we.” What do you mean by that?

(21-02-2012 05:45 PM)Ben Wrote:  OK, Egor. Even if I crush subatomic particles in a lucid dream and find my own consciousness (whatever that looks like), what the hell does that tell me?

I had a lucid dream where I flew, does that mean I can fly?

Flying dreams are usually precursors for lucid dreams. Some people call them pre-lucid. But that's not important. The lucid dream is a model for reality. I also believe it is a model for what we will enter when we die, if we are Christ when we die.

That's why its critical that we learn lessons in this life that lead us to Christ and develop us as Christ.
(21-02-2012 07:23 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  So you want to start with the cosmological argument. In anticipation of this, I already gave you the rebuttal of this a while ago... I don't believe that everything that comes into existence requires a cause.

God creating something out of nothing is illogical.

Okay but you’re being inconsistent. Look at what you have written:

I don't believe that everything that comes into existence requires a cause.
God creating something out of nothing is illogical.

Why shouldn’t God be able to create something out of nothing if things can come into existence without a cause? For the record, I’m not defending ex nihilo creation. I’m just saying you should give up this notion that contingent things can exist without a cause of their existence. No one would agree with that. I realize there is a very current movement within atheism, a desperate movement, to try to make up theories where that is possible. But they typically boil down to someone with a lot of academic credentials making shit up and lesser mortals following it. But the fact is, contingent things require a cause, and God doesn’t make things out of nothing.

Quote:To say that a universe that didn't exist was "caused" to exist doesn't make sense, because there was nothing for a god to act upon. I mentioned creatio ex materia, or creation from materials --- we've observed this. A chair is "caused to exist" by taking non-chair materials and re-assembling them into a chair. But we've never observed causality taking place between something existant and a non-existant object. This is best explained by one of my favorite YouTube philosophers, whose words I'm just blatantly ripping off, so I would suggest cutting out the middleman and just listening to him.

First off, I’m not going to listen to anything on YouTube. This conversation is between you and me. We can figure out the truth if we want to.

Second, you say God had nothing to act upon. I agree. But who says He did? I believe He is basically just imagining this universe. And we see this all the times in dreams. Yours and my limited imaginations and mental capabilities produce universes every night, complete with gravity, air, water, objects, people, personalities, etc.

Quote:But frankly, it's probably a waste of time. When you suggest that this is your first pawn move, what you imply is that you're going to try every tactic you can to convince me, and when those arguments fail you'll just move the goalposts. I don't want to hear "an argument" for why you believe in God... I want to hear "your argument". I want to know what actually convinced you to believe, because you're not going to concede your belief even if I knock down one of these lesser arguments.

Well, alright. Now that’s what we’re here for. I’m all in.
I am convinced God exists primarily because I don’t believe my mind is part of my body. This is more an argument for my soul, but it implies that I am part of a fundamental consciousness that began before I did as a human being. I also see this in my observations of protozoan behavior, and I have had dramatic examples of precognition.

My second reason is the connection I feel with an “other.” I conclude that other is my higher self, and I communicate with it back and forth on a regular basis.

My third reason is answered prayers.

My forth reason is all the stuff (arguments, observations, etc) that makes me think the opposite, that God does not exist, is impossible.

Fifth, my life seems to have a purpose to it. I seem to be on a path that makes stuff that happened when I was seven make sense. Now, it could be that I have ended up on this path because of the events of my life, but I see it in other people, too. As if their life is a story that was invented and played out.

So, these are my reasons, and I’m being as honest as I can be. Of course, I have psychological motivations as well. I have guilt that needs to be resolved, existential angst I can’t deal with any other way, and a need to make sense of suffering.

These are not necessarily good arguments for the existence of God, but they condition my mind to believe. And let’s not forget that I grew up in religion and have suffered a great deal of mental abuse as a result of it. But unlike most, I never threw out the baby with the bathwater. When I left the church, I left because they weren’t like Christ. But Christ remained with me.


Quote:Let me make things simple (because the burden of proof is obviously too much of a burden for you) by explaining the main reason why I don't believe. I see natural causes behind everything --- everything --- that happens. I don't have to wonder, upon seeing a child get raped, how this fits into the plan of a god... these things happen because people are selfish, lacking in self-control, delusional, psychotic, or even sometimes lacking in morals. When an earthquake kills people, it's because of shifts in unstable tectonic plates. It doesn't require explaining how this fits the plan of a god. When innocent fetuses die before they even get a chance to draw a breath, it's because of miscarriages caused in the normal malfunctions of the human body or by deliberate action of the mother because of her plan, but a god's plan is not necessary to explain it.

Quote:I'm holding this up against a hypothetical control group --- there's no way to know with certainty what a universe with a god would look like. But based on the descriptions of how people view their gods, we can draw logical conclusions. If a god is said to be all-powerful and doesn't want evil to exist, then the logical inference is that we'd live in a world without the existence of evil. If a god wants everyone to know of its existence and had the power to make that happen, then everyone would know of its existence. But we don't live in that universe. We live in a world where things happen by chance, and when things don't appear to be random, we can find a natural cause. We always do, eventually.

Quote:Now you may try to make a case for why a loving god would create an unloving place like Hell, or you can give me answers about why a perfect god would create imperfect things, but your explanations are not the "best" ones... they don't make as much sense as my alternative explanation makes, that your God is the creation of man just like all of the many, many false gods are. And if you have a better explanation, then why cling to one that requires rebuttals that could come from any of the believers of false gods, too? Even they have apologies for their beliefs, and they probably sound as weak to you as they do to me.

Fair enough. However, you are wrong about one thing. I believe in all gods. All gods, for as far back as humans believed in them, are true to me. God is too big to comprehend as we are. He is the God of raindrops, snowflakes, insects, cosmology, and gravity. In order to see Him, we have to filter Him. Jesus Christ is one such filter—the best, in my opinion. Krishna is a filter, and so is the Buddha, so is David Koresh and King David, and so is Jim Jones and Mohammed.

The human mind can’t contain what God is. We have to have revelations of God, or else the contemplation of God would drive us mad, believe me on that one. I think believing in God overall is pretty easy. I think finding the right revelation is hard—that’s the search.
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22-02-2012, 01:34 AM
RE: God Exists
(22-02-2012 12:50 AM)Egor Wrote:  Flying dreams are usually precursors for lucid dreams. Some people call them pre-lucid. But that's not important. The lucid dream is a model for reality. I also believe it is a model for what we will enter when we die, if we are Christ when we die.

Actually setting your alarm 2 hours before you get up and then going back to sleep every single morning will help you achieve lucidity.

Also having a "test/trigger" in dreams will also help.......9/10 times when you realise your dreaming you wake up.....but with practise you will become more and more lucid.

I should now I have practised it for over 20 years.

(22-02-2012 12:50 AM)Egor Wrote:  That's why its critical that we learn lessons in this life that lead us to Christ and develop us as Christ.

If that is the case then why is the institute/corporation you associate yourself with and your "god" so hippocritical????

If you believe in universal consciousness then where does this "set of earth rules" fit into the equasion??? Shouldnt there be a more universal scheme of things that we in no way can appreciate fully seeing as the only form we have...and will ever know is in the form of human perceptions???

I have heard more times than I care for......the pathetic excuse to when my answers have no answers is to "have a personal relationship with god"

Why not "have a personal relationship with YOURSELF"????

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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22-02-2012, 01:40 AM
 
RE: God Exists
(22-02-2012 01:34 AM)bemore Wrote:  Actually setting your alarm 2 hours before you get up and then going back to sleep every single morning will help you achieve lucidity.

Also having a "test/trigger" in dreams will also help.......9/10 times when you realise your dreaming you wake up.....but with practise you will become more and more lucid.

I should now I have practised it for over 20 years.

That's very interesting. I had a period in my life when I was lucid quite often in my dreams. And some of them did last for a good while. I don't prefer them now. I prefer standard dreams, because I believe standard dreams are better for interpretation and are a main way in which God communicates with us.

However, lucid dreaming is an important spiritual exercise, in my opinion as well.

(22-02-2012 12:50 AM)Egor Wrote:  If that is the case then why is the institute/corporation you associate yourself with and your "god" so hippocritical????

Veridicanism?

Quote:If you believe in universal consciousness then where does this "set of earth rules" fit into the equasion??? Shouldnt there be a more universal scheme of things that we in no way can appreciate fully seeing as the only form we have...and will ever know is in the form of human perceptions???

I have heard more times than I care for......the pathetic excuse to when my answers have no answers is to "have a personal relationship with god"

Why not "have a personal relationship with YOURSELF"????

I think there are certain rules God has given to mankind. The second tenet of Veridicanism for one, "Be Christ."
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22-02-2012, 01:45 AM (This post was last modified: 22-02-2012 01:48 AM by bemore.)
RE: God Exists
(22-02-2012 01:40 AM)Egor Wrote:  Veridicanism?

Is this your website???

http://www.blackspiritpublishing.com/

Also this as well.......

http://thebelieversrevolt.blogspot.com/

.......it lists the places that you "hang out" and the thinking atheist forum is one of them.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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22-02-2012, 02:14 AM
RE: God Exists
(22-02-2012 12:50 AM)Egor Wrote:  Sorry. I meant if there was no God, the default state would be non-existence.
...
Maybe, but we can know a few things: There cannot be an infinite regress of causes for our universe, even if it is born from other universes. We also know that it can't expand, collapse, expand, collapse eternally, because that would require God more than even the way it is right now--otherwise we'd be left with magical thinking. We also know that there is complex order in the structures of the universe. All of these things lead us to conclusions about God and His necessary existence.

It's late so I can't really spend a lot of time and I haven't caught up on the reading, so forgive me if this has already been stated.

I don't think it's true that there even has to be a cause for the universe. This is something we take for granted, but is not necessarily true.

Also, and again- if the default state of existence is non-existence, then this is just as true for any god as it is for us. It is just as true for your God as for any being period.
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22-02-2012, 02:23 AM
RE: God Exists
(22-02-2012 12:50 AM)Egor Wrote:  I am convinced God exists primarily because I don’t believe...

My second reason is the connection I feel...

My third reason is answered prayers...

Fifth, my life seems...
...but I see it in other people, too. As if their life is a story that was invented and played out...

So, these are my reasons, and I’m being as honest as I can be. Of course, I have psychological motivations as well. I have guilt that needs to be resolved, existential angst I can’t deal with any other way, and a need to make sense of suffering.

These are not necessarily good arguments for the existence of God, but they condition my mind to believe...

Thank you for making crystal clear your reasons for believing. The words I put in bold are your "evidence", which might be enough for you, but don't really say anything empirically. And the last 3 statements about guilt, your need to make sense of suffering and being conditioned are just your personal way of arriving at answers to questions you have trouble with. But all of this doesn't really add up to "God exists" anywhere but in your own mind, as far as I can see.

"Religion is the binky of a teen-age humanity."
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22-02-2012, 08:36 AM
RE: God Exists
(22-02-2012 12:50 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(21-02-2012 11:21 PM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  Again, if you would like to demonstrate how or why your experience(s) should be or could be used as evidence in demonstrating that your god exists - WE'RE ALL WAITING.

Nah, forget all that. There's time for that. I'd like to discuss your signature. It even bears repeating:

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.

Let’s talk about “we.” What do you mean by that?
We = people.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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22-02-2012, 08:51 AM (This post was last modified: 22-02-2012 08:58 AM by Starcrash.)
RE: God Exists
(22-02-2012 12:50 AM)Egor Wrote:  Okay but you’re being inconsistent. Look at what you have written:

I don't believe that everything that comes into existence requires a cause.
God creating something out of nothing is illogical.

Why shouldn’t God be able to create something out of nothing if things can come into existence without a cause? For the record, I’m not defending ex nihilo creation. I’m just saying you should give up this notion that contingent things can exist without a cause of their existence. No one would agree with that. I realize there is a very current movement within atheism, a desperate movement, to try to make up theories where that is possible. But they typically boil down to someone with a lot of academic credentials making shit up and lesser mortals following it. But the fact is, contingent things require a cause, and God doesn’t make things out of nothing.

I am consistent, and it's maddening because you're not. I don't believe that everything that comes into existence has a "cause", because this creates an infinite regress (such as with gods, which couldn't have been "caused" to exist). So why don't I believe that God "causes" anything to exist if I don't believe that anything requires a "cause" to exist? Consistency.

So what is your reason that "contigent things" have to have a "cause of their existence"? Because "no one" would agree with me (except the source I cited, obviously, and others). And then you make an ad hominem attack against anyone who would agree with me, claiming that they're "making shit up" even if they have academic credentials (what source could even make an effective argument with you if even credentials don't matter to you?) and then simply asserting that your view is "fact".

Look, I draw on our shared experience (we've never observed creatio ex nihilo, which is what you must assume happened to make the cosmological argument) and cite experts. This is evidence. You're simply asserting your point of view, and making personal attacks against anyone who doesn't share it. Do you see the problem here? If you don't want to check out my sources, that's okay --- but for the sake of plagiarism, I'm going to cite people whose words and ideas I would otherwise be stealing.

Quote:Second, you say God had nothing to act upon. I agree. But who says He did? I believe He is basically just imagining this universe. And we see this all the times in dreams. Yours and my limited imaginations and mental capabilities produce universes every night, complete with gravity, air, water, objects, people, personalities, etc.

You're just asserting this again. Despite believing that God is "basically just imagining this universe", you haven't given evidence that something physical can be created by non-physical processes. We may see things imagined into existence by dreams, but these things are imaginary by definition --- it's where the word comes from --- as opposed to real. We are not imaginary, so this evidence from experience isn't actually experience with the concept that you envision. Please stop making assertions, and propose a mechanism by which real things can be imagined into existence if this is what you want me to believe can and does happen.

Quote:Well, alright. Now that’s what we’re here for. I’m all in.
I am convinced God exists primarily because I don’t believe my mind is part of my body. This is more an argument for my soul, but it implies that I am part of a fundamental consciousness that began before I did as a human being. I also see this in my observations of protozoan behavior, and I have had dramatic examples of precognition.

My second reason is the connection I feel with an “other.” I conclude that other is my higher self, and I communicate with it back and forth on a regular basis.

My third reason is answered prayers.

My forth reason is all the stuff (arguments, observations, etc) that makes me think the opposite, that God does not exist, is impossible.

Fifth, my life seems to have a purpose to it. I seem to be on a path that makes stuff that happened when I was seven make sense. Now, it could be that I have ended up on this path because of the events of my life, but I see it in other people, too. As if their life is a story that was invented and played out.

Just assertions again. But let me shoot them down anyway.

The soul has never been located in the body. Worse, evidence against a single mind has been found in patients with a damaged corpus collosum in their brains. In these patients, each hemisphere of the brain can be interrogated separately, and we've found at least one case where somebody believes in God with one half of their brain and doesn't believe in God with the other half (if you don't want to read the citation, that's fine, but I don't expect you to take me on faith --- I don't just assert things as fact).

The problem with feeling a connection with an "other" is that people's feelings are manipulated and fooled on a regular basis. This connection can't be tested or verified, and it's safe that say that it's no more convincing to me than my "feeling we're alone in the universe" is convincing to you.

Third, prayers fail scientific tests. People who offer prayers can never make predictions about how their prayers will be answered, so there's no way to confirm if a prayer is answered by purpose or by random chance, but tests verify that random chance is the more accurate model.

Fourth, if you're going to assert that a universe without a God is impossible, you have to give at least one reason why. Remember how I told you that picturing a universe with a God is hypothetical? If you believe that there is a God in this universe, then picturing a universe without one is equally hypothetical. You can draw logical conclusions based on how such a universe would look, but you have to at least try to do that much.

Fifth, my life has purpose too without a God. I love my daughter and live to give her a good life and proper upbringing, one in which she suffers very little and is generally happy and healthy. I try to be the best I can at my career. I spend a lot of time learning and applying knowledge. I don't need a God for purpose, and neither do you... you just don't know it yet.

Quote:Fair enough. However, you are wrong about one thing. I believe in all gods. All gods, for as far back as humans believed in them, are true to me. God is too big to comprehend as we are. He is the God of raindrops, snowflakes, insects, cosmology, and gravity. In order to see Him, we have to filter Him. Jesus Christ is one such filter—the best, in my opinion. Krishna is a filter, and so is the Buddha, so is David Koresh and King David, and so is Jim Jones and Mohammed.

There's a reason why I believe that you don't believe in all gods --- they're mutually exclusive. For example, Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, while Christians believe he was a God. You can't hold both beliefs simultaneously, and Muslims wouldn't let you if you could --- they believe that worship of the Christian God (or any rival God) is apostasy and deserves death. Wikkans believe that their gods are found only in living things, and they define God in a much different way than the Greeks and Romans did, as physical beings living on Earth at the top of Mount Olympus. The Vikings would picture them physically in Valhalla. The Christians would say that God has no physical body, but they wouldn't claim that he's only found in living things. You just can't have every religion. Now I imagine that you believe in these gods, but simply not in the way that those religions define them... but then it's fair to ask, in what way do you really believe in some other religion's gods if you don't actually hold their beliefs? To redefine their gods is to be dishonest about your belief in their gods.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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