God and Free Choice.
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12-10-2011, 09:31 PM
God and Free Choice.
The old argument goes something like this:......
(1) God gave man free will (choice) in order to grow spiritually

(2)If God was perfectly good he would have known that man would abuse choice.

Therefore God made a wrong or indeed evil decision and this negates his alleged God nature.


If I might play the devils advocate; it is extremely difficult to see humanity developing without the choices, rendered by best and worst practise, even if God was perfectly good (a term I have great difficulty with). I do not see evolution per se, as a marvellous solution.

It is also argued that God could have made perfectly good automatons, thus alleviating the need for free choice and providing a lovely world for all.
This argument is specious because the whole essence of learning and growing would be negated.

In adopting a largely faith position Christians may well, in some instances, be adopting a highly sophisticated one, beyond science, and contemplative of the cosmos, not simply earth.

One can also posit that man, in terms of science, is pretty close to singularity, all will be revealed, and faith is a nonsense. However, as for free will provided by a devil and not a god, by virtue of our limited time and understanding, I no longer see this argument as convincing.
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13-10-2011, 05:53 AM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2011 05:57 AM by Filox.)
RE: God and Free Choice.
I could never accept God as the Ultimate Good. If he/she/it was truly a God, it would be neutral, good and bad are human emotions and human morality. If he/she/it was the Creator of everything, then it would create the good and bad feelings as well and only a True Neutral God could do such a thing. Good God would not create anything bad, Evil God would not care for us at all and would not create us in the first place. An this all comes back to Nature...

There are more things to consider, not only good or evil, here I will use DnD world again, here is a list of alignments and their descriptions...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(...6_Dragons)

(In the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game, alignment is a categorization of the ethical and moral perspective of people, creatures and societies.)

There are 9 classes of alignments and my favorite one is Lawful Evil, although I think I am more Lawful Neutral, to Lawful Good in RL...

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
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13-10-2011, 07:40 PM
RE: God and Free Choice.
(13-10-2011 05:53 AM)Filox Wrote:  I could never accept God as the Ultimate Good. If he/she/it was truly a God, it would be neutral, good and bad are human emotions and human morality. If he/she/it was the Creator of everything, then it would create the good and bad feelings as well and only a True Neutral God could do such a thing. Good God would not create anything bad, Evil God would not care for us at all and would not create us in the first place. An this all comes back to Nature...

There are more things to consider, not only good or evil, here I will use DnD world again, here is a list of alignments and their descriptions...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(...6_Dragons)

(In the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game, alignment is a categorization of the ethical and moral perspective of people, creatures and societies.)

There are 9 classes of alignments and my favorite one is Lawful Evil, although I think I am more Lawful Neutral, to Lawful Good in RL...

I agree with a good deal of what you say; the neutral god position is interesting.

Zarathustra, a possible? Persian mystic, taught of two gods. Ahura Mazda was good and Ahriman was bad. A total goodness, without evil, seems impossible for me.
The idea of absolute goodness can cause a lot of trouble.

My position, very loosely, is that our most noble intentions, multiplied en masse
is suggestive of god (goodness) and this could somehow be represented in the Universe.

I know a very smart guy who is very much into Dragons and Dungeons, along with Unitarian Universalism;must admit I'm a bit of a woose about that stuff.
Thanks for the link I'll check it out.
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13-10-2011, 08:25 PM
RE: God and Free Choice.
(12-10-2011 09:31 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  The old argument goes something like this:......
(1) God gave man free will (choice) in order to grow spiritually

I'm not at all sure I'm willing to admit free will.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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13-10-2011, 11:36 PM
RE: God and Free Choice.
(13-10-2011 08:25 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-10-2011 09:31 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  The old argument goes something like this:......
(1) God gave man free will (choice) in order to grow spiritually

I'm not at all sure I'm willing to admit free will.
How about degrees of choice as opposed to an absolute genetic determinism? Nature versus nurture...

There is also a problem relating to the choices relevant to what lies at the end of the rainbow, for believers.

If God, or some super worth while force existed could, in any instance,it be incumbent upon that force to reveal itself in what may seem a quite bizarre way.

Sorry sounds like a quiz......just a few of my thoughts........Wink
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