God and Free Will!
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11-12-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: God and Free Will!
(11-12-2013 02:10 PM)Crulax Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 02:05 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Do you think "God" is omnipotent? Does omnipotence mean the ability to do anything? If you answer yes to both of those, then God can apparently be omniscient and also give us free will.

No
Thanks. This really had to do with the other point, not yours. Unfortunately many atheists play both sides of the omnipotence fence. It means able to do anything, including the logically impossible, when that suits them. But, if they want to argue that the concept of god includes a logical impossibility, they forget about the omnipotence bit.
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11-12-2013, 03:18 PM
RE: God and Free Will!
(11-12-2013 02:31 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 02:10 PM)Crulax Wrote:  No
Thanks. This really had to do with the other point, not yours. Unfortunately many atheists play both sides of the omnipotence fence. It means able to do anything, including the logically impossible, when that suits them. But, if they want to argue that the concept of god includes a logical impossibility, they forget about the omnipotence bit.

You seem to indicate that God cannot do the logically impossible, and i agree.

But I have a question: can He create a Universe out of nothing physically being pre-existent?

Ciao

- viole
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11-12-2013, 03:27 PM
RE: God and Free Will!
Has anyone noticed this subject is obscured in the semantics. Determinism and free will are opposites in dictionaries yet both believe men make choices. The difference is that the term "choice" has both it's subjective and objective points of view. The objective point of view is that which contemplates why someone chooses the way they do. An ignorant person makes ignorant choices. A knowledgeable person makes knowledgeable choices. The subjective point of view only knows we make decisions because we reason. So when the semantics ate taken into account it is both true that mankind does have a free will and yet mankind does not have a free will. It is an obscure term.
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11-12-2013, 03:35 PM
RE: God and Free Will!
(11-12-2013 03:18 PM)viole Wrote:  You seem to indicate that God cannot do the logically impossible, and i agree.

But I have a question: can He create a Universe out of nothing physically being pre-existent?
He can create a universe. I don't see that I'd term it "out of nothing."
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11-12-2013, 04:05 PM
RE: God and Free Will!
(11-12-2013 01:27 PM)Crulax Wrote:  Supposedly the mystical magician in the sky gave mankind free will but knows the outcome of our actions. How is it free will if the mystical magician knows the outcome and if he/she/it didn't know the outcome then how is he/she/it omniscient. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Nowhere do you mention that God is making the person do things. It's entirely up to the person. Even if God knows what someone will do, that's just because he knows what type of person this person is and what they will do (presumably). They still have free will.

“The only reason people do not know much is because they do not care to know. They are incurious. Incuriousity is the oddest and most foolish failing there is.” -Stephen Fry
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11-12-2013, 10:58 PM
RE: God and Free Will!
(11-12-2013 01:27 PM)Crulax Wrote:  Supposedly the mystical magician in the sky gave mankind free will

No, that is not true of all religions nor even of all Christian denominations.
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11-12-2013, 11:04 PM
RE: God and Free Will!
The thing is, in Moral Theology, a ("free") moral choice assumes that someone is fully conscious of ALL the elements involved in a choice, and makes a fully conscious decision. Neuro-science has debunked that. Choices are made without being fully aware of all the element in the choice, and in fact the actual decision has been proven to be made BEFORE we are fully conscious of the choice. That is not "free will". It's bullshit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-12-2013, 12:06 AM
RE: God and Free Will!
(11-12-2013 11:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The thing is, in Moral Theology, a ("free") moral choice assumes that someone is fully conscious of ALL the elements involved in a choice, and makes a fully conscious decision. Neuro-science has debunked that. Choices are made without being fully aware of all the element in the choice, and in fact the actual decision has been proven to be made BEFORE we are fully conscious of the choice. That is not "free will". It's bullshit.
Good point. That is why we do not see the term in any scripture except to imply voluntary actions in offerings. Such a moral theology does not recognize what is working in the subconscious that actually pre-determines our moral choices. They think righteousness is a matter of reasoning and decision rather than understanding that the truth one reasons upon has already predetermined the outcome. Hence Jesus says, the children of God return good for evil. He also describes that type of reasoning that always ends in hypocrisy.
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12-12-2013, 12:12 AM
RE: God and Free Will!
(12-12-2013 12:06 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 11:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The thing is, in Moral Theology, a ("free") moral choice assumes that someone is fully conscious of ALL the elements involved in a choice, and makes a fully conscious decision. Neuro-science has debunked that. Choices are made without being fully aware of all the element in the choice, and in fact the actual decision has been proven to be made BEFORE we are fully conscious of the choice. That is not "free will". It's bullshit.
Good point. That is why we do not see the term in any scripture except to imply voluntary actions in offerings. Such a moral theology does not recognize what is working in the subconscious that actually pre-determines our moral choices. They think righteousness is a matter of reasoning and decision rather than understanding that the truth one reasons upon has already predetermined the outcome. Hence Jesus says, the children of God return good for evil. He also describes that type of reasoning that always ends in hypocrisy.

"Scripture" was all written by ancient ignoramuses. It has nothing to teach us in 2013. That has NOTHING to do with it. They in no way understood the fine points of Neuro-science. Jesus never existed, so don't be so idiotic as to come to an atheist site, and preach your crap. If you are going to try, start with proving he even existed, then prove that the gospels are reliable. THEN maybe you can tell us what he said, not before. Okey dokey ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-12-2013, 12:22 AM
RE: God and Free Will!
Omnipotence is the umbrella term under which omniscience is entailed.

The verb "to know" is just God another one of His unlimited capabilities.

He has the ability to know but not the necessity to know all things at all times everywhere and every when.

God doesnt NEED to know what will (or might) happen tomorrow. Why would He, of all people, need to worry about what might occur tomorrow or the day after....?

If anyone can afford to take each moment as it comes, it's Him.

...hey God, what are you going to do tomorrow?

Drinking Beverage...anything I want
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