God and Free Will!
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12-12-2013, 01:09 AM
RE: God and Free Will!
(12-12-2013 12:12 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 12:06 AM)childeye Wrote:  Good point. That is why we do not see the term in any scripture except to imply voluntary actions in offerings. Such a moral theology does not recognize what is working in the subconscious that actually pre-determines our moral choices. They think righteousness is a matter of reasoning and decision rather than understanding that the truth one reasons upon has already predetermined the outcome. Hence Jesus says, the children of God return good for evil. He also describes that type of reasoning that always ends in hypocrisy.

Quote:"Scripture" was all written by ancient ignoramuses. It has nothing to teach us in 2013. That has NOTHING to do with it. They in no way understood the fine points of Neuro-science.

On the contrary, the bible is full of wisdom that is as applicable now as it ever was. Neuro science is only beginning to understand how the brain functions. It is not applicable to what is true in scripture. Remember that scripture is essentially saying one simple thing, to love others as you would want to be loved.

Quote:Jesus never existed, so don't be so idiotic as to come to an atheist site, and preach your crap. If you are going to try, start with proving he even existed, then prove that the gospels are reliable. THEN maybe you can tell us what he said, not before. Okey dokey ?
There are many historical accounts about Jesus existing. I'm sure you are able to look them up yourself. It isn't hard to google.
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12-12-2013, 01:51 AM
RE: God and Free Will!
Free will,omnipotence,omnipresence,omniscience,omnibenevolence ALL of these terms are self-contradictory logical fallacies.
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12-12-2013, 02:20 AM
RE: God and Free Will!
I had a premonition once that we would have a terrible accident on a trip. Because of that premonition, I waited and we left 15 minutes later. When we got near the Hoover Damn around midnight, we stopped to look at the map. As we were looking at the map, somone came from that direction and pulled up to us and told us the road was out up ahead due to construction. We were pulling a 30-ft trailer. I don't know what would have happened if we had gone down that road. Because of his warning, we never did. But had we left at our original time, we never would have met that person who pulled up and warned us.

Did we prevent the future that was set?

With most people, God knows what's going to happen. With those who practice the psychic arts, God doesn't know, and I think he really likes that about psychic people. I think it makes us partners with him in creating the outcome of the universe.

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12-12-2013, 05:15 AM
RE: God and Free Will!
(11-12-2013 01:27 PM)Crulax Wrote:  Supposedly the mystical magician in the sky gave mankind free will but knows the outcome of our actions. How is it free will if the mystical magician knows the outcome and if he/she/it didn't know the outcome then how is he/she/it omniscient.

An old favorite and one that inevitably degenerates into semantics so let's define a few terms first.

Free Will is the concept that sentient beings are more than mere mechanisms, more than cause-effect, action-reaction, and are capable of choosing our response to a given situation. The choice may be a carefully calculated one or, as at least one other poster has already mentioned, may occur at an unconscious level. It doesn't matter, all that's important is that the choice was mine and not somebody or something else'. Without Free Will we're just complex automata, no more to blame for our actions than an alarm clock is to be blamed for ringing at the time you set it to go off. Free Will has never been particularly well demonstrated but neither has it been particularly well refuted so for the purposes of this discussion we might as well assume that it exists.

Omniscience is one of those pesky artifacts of monotheism that looks damned impressive until you try it on and discover that one size fits nobody. It stems from the simple fact that it just does not do for a monotheist to suffer pagans walking up to them bragging about how Heracles can lift more oxen than their god. Their god has do be able to lift an infinite number of oxen, preferably infinity plus one. It has to be bigger, stronger, smarter and overall more bad-ass, at least until Chuck Norris came along, and to ensure this it gets given a whole slew of infinite powers. Sounds great until you actually start thinking about infinity, or worse doing the math behind infinity, and then everything falls apart.

As you've pointed out, the crux of the problem is that if god is omniscient then he already knows what actions we'll take in response to which events and we are just acting out a preordained script. Without choice, sin becomes nothing more than god blaming his chess pieces for playing a bad game and the lynch pin falls out of several millennia of religious guilt and lands squarely in god's lap.

Theists responses are typically unsatisfactory and can be summed up as:
  1. Ignoring the problem, failing to understand it or pretending that it doesn't exist. It's an all-time classic that's used on almost every argument but isn't terribly sound.
  2. A god of limited omniscience that knows everything except what your choice will be. The problem with that is that every choice has ripple effects, especially on subsequent choices, other people, their choices, etc... so pretty quickly you can't see anything at all. This leaves Free Will intact but gives you a crippled deity whose omniscience loses reception every time I have to choose between chocolate ripple or strawberry swirl.
  3. A futureless god that never peaks at our choices because he's omnipotent too and can work with whatever we choose to do. This deity strikes me as particularly lame. One of the hallmarks of sentience is its capacity to examine the events of the future and to mortgage today for a better tomorrow. Even the most deeply-rooted couch potato looks to what will be on after this show and what dinner's likely to be but this god doesn't even have that much interest in the future. This is really just patching over one bad infinity with another.

If I were a theist, which I am not, and needed to reconcile my religion's paradoxical attributes I'd take care of these two by suggesting that god does not see your choice, he sees all possible choices, the results of each choice, their repercussions, etc... and plans accordingly for each and every possible outcome. This god would view the future as a vast and infinitely branched tree of possibilities and probabilities with Free Will collapsing it into the single unity of the present. It's a much more impressive omniscience that also knows everything that could ever be than one that merely knows everything that is.

(11-12-2013 01:27 PM)Crulax Wrote:  It just doesn't make sense to me.
To paraphrase Heinlein, 'God is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-forgiving. If you can hold those three ideas in your head simultaneously then I have a bridge to sell you.'
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12-12-2013, 07:21 AM
RE: God and Free Will!
(12-12-2013 01:09 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 12:12 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  

On the contrary, the bible is full of wisdom that is as applicable now as it ever was. Neuro science is only beginning to understand how the brain functions. It is not applicable to what is true in scripture. Remember that scripture is essentially saying one simple thing, to love others as you would want to be loved.

Quote:Jesus never existed, so don't be so idiotic as to come to an atheist site, and preach your crap. If you are going to try, start with proving he even existed, then prove that the gospels are reliable. THEN maybe you can tell us what he said, not before. Okey dokey ?
There are many historical accounts about Jesus existing. I'm sure you are able to look them up yourself. It isn't hard to google.

Scripture doesn't say 'one simple thing', it says many contradictory things and promotes some horrendous crimes against humanity.

I suggest you use Google. Refine your search to reputable sources. Qualified and impartial historians, scientists and archaeologists. I suspect that's what Bucky had in mind as opposed to apologeticmentalistwishthinkers.com

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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12-12-2013, 07:35 AM
RE: God and Free Will!
(12-12-2013 05:15 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 01:27 PM)Crulax Wrote:  Supposedly the mystical magician in the sky gave mankind free will but knows the outcome of our actions. How is it free will if the mystical magician knows the outcome and if he/she/it didn't know the outcome then how is he/she/it omniscient.

An old favorite and one that inevitably degenerates into semantics so let's define a few terms first.

Free Will is the concept that sentient beings are more than mere mechanisms, more than cause-effect, action-reaction, and are capable of choosing our response to a given situation. The choice may be a carefully calculated one or, as at least one other poster has already mentioned, may occur at an unconscious level. It doesn't matter, all that's important is that the choice was mine and not somebody or something else'. Without Free Will we're just complex automata, no more to blame for our actions than an alarm clock is to be blamed for ringing at the time you set it to go off. Free Will has never been particularly well demonstrated but neither has it been particularly well refuted so for the purposes of this discussion we might as well assume that it exists.

Omniscience is one of those pesky artifacts of monotheism that looks damned impressive until you try it on and discover that one size fits nobody. It stems from the simple fact that it just does not do for a monotheist to suffer pagans walking up to them bragging about how Heracles can lift more oxen than their god. Their god has do be able to lift an infinite number of oxen, preferably infinity plus one. It has to be bigger, stronger, smarter and overall more bad-ass, at least until Chuck Norris came along, and to ensure this it gets given a whole slew of infinite powers. Sounds great until you actually start thinking about infinity, or worse doing the math behind infinity, and then everything falls apart.

As you've pointed out, the crux of the problem is that if god is omniscient then he already knows what actions we'll take in response to which events and we are just acting out a preordained script. Without choice, sin becomes nothing more than god blaming his chess pieces for playing a bad game and the lynch pin falls out of several millennia of religious guilt and lands squarely in god's lap.

Theists responses are typically unsatisfactory and can be summed up as:
  1. Ignoring the problem, failing to understand it or pretending that it doesn't exist. It's an all-time classic that's used on almost every argument but isn't terribly sound.
  2. A god of limited omniscience that knows everything except what your choice will be. The problem with that is that every choice has ripple effects, especially on subsequent choices, other people, their choices, etc... so pretty quickly you can't see anything at all. This leaves Free Will intact but gives you a crippled deity whose omniscience loses reception every time I have to choose between chocolate ripple or strawberry swirl.
  3. A futureless god that never peaks at our choices because he's omnipotent too and can work with whatever we choose to do. This deity strikes me as particularly lame. One of the hallmarks of sentience is its capacity to examine the events of the future and to mortgage today for a better tomorrow. Even the most deeply-rooted couch potato looks to what will be on after this show and what dinner's likely to be but this god doesn't even have that much interest in the future. This is really just patching over one bad infinity with another.

If I were a theist, which I am not, and needed to reconcile my religion's paradoxical attributes I'd take care of these two by suggesting that god does not see your choice, he sees all possible choices, the results of each choice, their repercussions, etc... and plans accordingly for each and every possible outcome. This god would view the future as a vast and infinitely branched tree of possibilities and probabilities with Free Will collapsing it into the single unity of the present. It's a much more impressive omniscience that also knows everything that could ever be than one that merely knows everything that is.

(11-12-2013 01:27 PM)Crulax Wrote:  It just doesn't make sense to me.
To paraphrase Heinlein, 'God is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-forgiving. If you can hold those three ideas in your head simultaneously then I have a bridge to sell you.'

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12-12-2013, 12:41 PM
RE: God and Free Will!
(11-12-2013 01:27 PM)Crulax Wrote:  Supposedly the mystical magician in the sky gave mankind free will but knows the outcome of our actions. How is it free will if the mystical magician knows the outcome and if he/she/it didn't know the outcome then how is he/she/it omniscient. It just doesn't make sense to me.
The way I see it, an omnipotent god would be the only one who could possibly have free will. For the rest of us, our choices are inevitably influenced in one way or another by our surroundings and contextual circumstances and can never, therefore, be completely free.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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12-12-2013, 12:48 PM
RE: God and Free Will!
(12-12-2013 12:41 PM)Impulse Wrote:  The way I see it, an omnipotent god would be the only one who could possibly have free will. For the rest of us, our choices are inevitably influenced in one way or another by our surroundings and contextual circumstances and can never, therefore, be completely free.
Complete freedom isn't the point in this context. What's needed is freedom to make moral choices sufficient to warrant judgment.
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12-12-2013, 12:50 PM
RE: God and Free Will!
(12-12-2013 12:22 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  God doesnt NEED to know what will (or might) happen tomorrow. Why would He, of all people, need to worry about what might occur tomorrow or the day after....?
People? Hmm, Freudian slip... Big Grin

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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12-12-2013, 12:52 PM
RE: God and Free Will!
(12-12-2013 12:48 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 12:41 PM)Impulse Wrote:  The way I see it, an omnipotent god would be the only one who could possibly have free will. For the rest of us, our choices are inevitably influenced in one way or another by our surroundings and contextual circumstances and can never, therefore, be completely free.
Complete freedom isn't the point in this context. What's needed is freedom to make moral choices sufficient to warrant judgment.
Did you read the OP? No discussion of morals at all...

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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