God and Logic
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
05-08-2012, 11:49 AM
God and Logic
I'm currently in a speech class at my local community college (dual credit, I am still a high schooler.) My teacher is fairly religious, believes in God and what not, the Christian God, but is not a preacher to my class. However, a class or two ago, he said a few things about God and logic to the class, which I would like to discuss now.

We talked about logical fallacies. He taught us about ad hominem, reduction ad absurdum, etc. Then, he told us about God. Paraphrased as best I can,

"We deal with humans with logic, call it the horizontal axis. We deal with God on another axis, the vertical axis. God doesn't have to follow logic, folks. If God followed logic, why did my son have to die? Why do children starve? Don't even try to defend the Virgin Birth, or walking on water. You simply can't. And so we just take these on faith. In your upper level third and fourth year classes, they might say that all of these things contradict and everything is a mess, but that's not true. We can't apply logic to God."

I dispute this for several reasons. Digressing a bit, he blatantly mislead people about math and logic (how I took it.) He gave us the missing dollar riddle (here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?...52AAPoPPe, you might have heard it before.) He told us that the answer really depends on how you do the problem, and there is no absolute (instead of the answer that there is a false conclusion in the $29 result. I forgot how the riddle works at the time, so I couldn't dispute it.)

And so, the first assault on logic.

Next, the statement "God doesn't follow logic". First, you can't say this because your son died, and children starve. That makes no kind of sense. Besides, this is assuming God exists in the first place.

Now I want to get away from my speech teacher and more about the actual statement.

I came up with this on my own, so I don't know if its sound. First, if God doesn't follow logic, then you cannot make any logical statements about him (which, is a logical statement in itself. You cannot say anything about God but you can't say you can't say anything about God because that's a logical statement. It's all confusing.) "If I worship and believe and God, he will send me to Heaven" - that's a logical statement. God doesn't have to follow logic, so you can still go to Hell. But that also is a logical statement. Does this mean that a God without logic makes everything inherently unstable and incomprehensible? Does that mean that we can safely assume that logic must hold, even with God, because otherwise, nothing is understandable?

Second, if you can't apply logic to God, and you must take things on faith, then can't you make the same statements for any myth? I can take that human sacrifice makes it rain on faith (obviously he does not endorse this.) I can't apply logic, so who are you to tell me this is wrong? It's my faith! I don't see how you can refute anything by saying God doesn't follow logic. And if you can't refute anything, then anything goes, including suicide bombing, human sacrifice, mass murder, rape, etc.

See any significant problems with my counter arguments? I find the position that you cannot apply logic to be ridiculous. Especially given the points he made.

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned" - Anonymous
I am glad to live where there is no God, for I am moral, and mortal; I do not wish to worship He who crafts an immoral immortality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes nsguy1350's post
05-08-2012, 12:02 PM
RE: God and Logic
(05-08-2012 11:49 AM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  I'm currently in a speech class at my local community college (dual credit, I am still a high schooler.) My teacher is fairly religious, believes in God and what not, the Christian God, but is not a preacher to my class. However, a class or two ago, he said a few things about God and logic to the class, which I would like to discuss now.

We talked about logical fallacies. He taught us about ad hominem, reduction ad absurdum, etc. Then, he told us about God. Paraphrased as best I can,

"We deal with humans with logic, call it the horizontal axis. We deal with God on another axis, the vertical axis. God doesn't have to follow logic, folks. If God followed logic, why did my son have to die? Why do children starve? Don't even try to defend the Virgin Birth, or walking on water. You simply can't. And so we just take these on faith. In your upper level third and fourth year classes, they might say that all of these things contradict and everything is a mess, but that's not true. We can't apply logic to God."

I dispute this for several reasons. Digressing a bit, he blatantly mislead people about math and logic (how I took it.) He gave us the missing dollar riddle (here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?...52AAPoPPe, you might have heard it before.) He told us that the answer really depends on how you do the problem, and there is no absolute (instead of the answer that there is a false conclusion in the $29 result. I forgot how the riddle works at the time, so I couldn't dispute it.)

And so, the first assault on logic.

Next, the statement "God doesn't follow logic". First, you can't say this because your son died, and children starve. That makes no kind of sense. Besides, this is assuming God exists in the first place.

Now I want to get away from my speech teacher and more about the actual statement.

I came up with this on my own, so I don't know if its sound. First, if God doesn't follow logic, then you cannot make any logical statements about him (which, is a logical statement in itself. You cannot say anything about God but you can't say you can't say anything about God because that's a logical statement. It's all confusing.) "If I worship and believe and God, he will send me to Heaven" - that's a logical statement. God doesn't have to follow logic, so you can still go to Hell. But that also is a logical statement. Does this mean that a God without logic makes everything inherently unstable and incomprehensible? Does that mean that we can safely assume that logic must hold, even with God, because otherwise, nothing is understandable?

Second, if you can't apply logic to God, and you must take things on faith, then can't you make the same statements for any myth? I can take that human sacrifice makes it rain on faith (obviously he does not endorse this.) I can't apply logic, so who are you to tell me this is wrong? It's my faith! I don't see how you can refute anything by saying God doesn't follow logic. And if you can't refute anything, then anything goes, including suicide bombing, human sacrifice, mass murder, rape, etc.

See any significant problems with my counter arguments? I find the position that you cannot apply logic to be ridiculous. Especially given the points he made.

If God exists and has any effect on the universe, then we should be able to observe those.
If there are no observable effects, how can you say that God even exists?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
05-08-2012, 12:41 PM
RE: God and Logic
(05-08-2012 12:02 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-08-2012 11:49 AM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  I'm currently in a speech class at my local community college (dual credit, I am still a high schooler.) My teacher is fairly religious, believes in God and what not, the Christian God, but is not a preacher to my class. However, a class or two ago, he said a few things about God and logic to the class, which I would like to discuss now.

We talked about logical fallacies. He taught us about ad hominem, reduction ad absurdum, etc. Then, he told us about God. Paraphrased as best I can,

"We deal with humans with logic, call it the horizontal axis. We deal with God on another axis, the vertical axis. God doesn't have to follow logic, folks. If God followed logic, why did my son have to die? Why do children starve? Don't even try to defend the Virgin Birth, or walking on water. You simply can't. And so we just take these on faith. In your upper level third and fourth year classes, they might say that all of these things contradict and everything is a mess, but that's not true. We can't apply logic to God."

I dispute this for several reasons. Digressing a bit, he blatantly mislead people about math and logic (how I took it.) He gave us the missing dollar riddle (here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?...52AAPoPPe, you might have heard it before.) He told us that the answer really depends on how you do the problem, and there is no absolute (instead of the answer that there is a false conclusion in the $29 result. I forgot how the riddle works at the time, so I couldn't dispute it.)

And so, the first assault on logic.

Next, the statement "God doesn't follow logic". First, you can't say this because your son died, and children starve. That makes no kind of sense. Besides, this is assuming God exists in the first place.

Now I want to get away from my speech teacher and more about the actual statement.

I came up with this on my own, so I don't know if its sound. First, if God doesn't follow logic, then you cannot make any logical statements about him (which, is a logical statement in itself. You cannot say anything about God but you can't say you can't say anything about God because that's a logical statement. It's all confusing.) "If I worship and believe and God, he will send me to Heaven" - that's a logical statement. God doesn't have to follow logic, so you can still go to Hell. But that also is a logical statement. Does this mean that a God without logic makes everything inherently unstable and incomprehensible? Does that mean that we can safely assume that logic must hold, even with God, because otherwise, nothing is understandable?

Second, if you can't apply logic to God, and you must take things on faith, then can't you make the same statements for any myth? I can take that human sacrifice makes it rain on faith (obviously he does not endorse this.) I can't apply logic, so who are you to tell me this is wrong? It's my faith! I don't see how you can refute anything by saying God doesn't follow logic. And if you can't refute anything, then anything goes, including suicide bombing, human sacrifice, mass murder, rape, etc.

See any significant problems with my counter arguments? I find the position that you cannot apply logic to be ridiculous. Especially given the points he made.

If God exists and has any effect on the universe, then we should be able to observe those.
If there are no observable effects, how can you say that God even exists?

Faith, apparently. People aren't convinced that faith is ridiculous. They take it on faith, and you can't argue that, in their minds.

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned" - Anonymous
I am glad to live where there is no God, for I am moral, and mortal; I do not wish to worship He who crafts an immoral immortality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-08-2012, 02:38 PM
RE: God and Logic
(05-08-2012 12:41 PM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  
(05-08-2012 12:02 PM)Chas Wrote:  If God exists and has any effect on the universe, then we should be able to observe those.
If there are no observable effects, how can you say that God even exists?

Faith, apparently. People aren't convinced that faith is ridiculous. They take it on faith, and you can't argue that, in their minds.

I play golf with a friend who doesn't know how far, in yards, she hits the ball with any club; she doesn't pay attention to the yardage markers.
She looks and picks a club that seems right.
I tell her she's playing faith-based golf.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
05-08-2012, 04:11 PM
RE: God and Logic
(05-08-2012 11:49 AM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  I'm currently in a speech class at my local community college (dual credit, I am still a high schooler.) My teacher is fairly religious, believes in God and what not, the Christian God, but is not a preacher to my class. However, a class or two ago, he said a few things about God and logic to the class, which I would like to discuss now.

We talked about logical fallacies. He taught us about ad hominem, reduction ad absurdum, etc. Then, he told us about God. Paraphrased as best I can,

"We deal with humans with logic, call it the horizontal axis. We deal with God on another axis, the vertical axis. God doesn't have to follow logic, folks. If God followed logic, why did my son have to die? Why do children starve? Don't even try to defend the Virgin Birth, or walking on water. You simply can't. And so we just take these on faith. In your upper level third and fourth year classes, they might say that all of these things contradict and everything is a mess, but that's not true. We can't apply logic to God."

I dispute this for several reasons. Digressing a bit, he blatantly mislead people about math and logic (how I took it.) He gave us the missing dollar riddle (here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?...52AAPoPPe, you might have heard it before.) He told us that the answer really depends on how you do the problem, and there is no absolute (instead of the answer that there is a false conclusion in the $29 result. I forgot how the riddle works at the time, so I couldn't dispute it.)

And so, the first assault on logic.

Next, the statement "God doesn't follow logic". First, you can't say this because your son died, and children starve. That makes no kind of sense. Besides, this is assuming God exists in the first place.

Now I want to get away from my speech teacher and more about the actual statement.

I came up with this on my own, so I don't know if its sound. First, if God doesn't follow logic, then you cannot make any logical statements about him (which, is a logical statement in itself. You cannot say anything about God but you can't say you can't say anything about God because that's a logical statement. It's all confusing.) "If I worship and believe and God, he will send me to Heaven" - that's a logical statement. God doesn't have to follow logic, so you can still go to Hell. But that also is a logical statement. Does this mean that a God without logic makes everything inherently unstable and incomprehensible? Does that mean that we can safely assume that logic must hold, even with God, because otherwise, nothing is understandable?

Second, if you can't apply logic to God, and you must take things on faith, then can't you make the same statements for any myth? I can take that human sacrifice makes it rain on faith (obviously he does not endorse this.) I can't apply logic, so who are you to tell me this is wrong? It's my faith! I don't see how you can refute anything by saying God doesn't follow logic. And if you can't refute anything, then anything goes, including suicide bombing, human sacrifice, mass murder, rape, etc.

See any significant problems with my counter arguments? I find the position that you cannot apply logic to be ridiculous. Especially given the points he made.

Looks like you're doin' very well on your own. A couple hints.
If he started out talking to you about Logic in the first place then you can ask him if he really buys into it ? He will no doubt say yes. Then ask him why his exemption for his god is not just Special Pleading, (you can look it up..it's another fallacy).


His son had to die, because the laws of the universe are logical, and they continued to be logical, and whatever caused the death, was just a small example of the working out of the laws of probability, and genetics, (or Gravity), or whatever caused the death. It was NOT illogical. He wished it did not happen, but what he wants is a personal exemption to the laws, the universe follows. It IS logical. Inconvenient, perhaps, but very logical. People die in accidents and from the cancers precisely because the universe IS logical and consistent. We know why children starve. They don't get enough to eat. What he wants to know is "why does THIS child starve". The universe is impersonal, and internally consistent. It makes perfect sense that his son died, and children starve.

He will no doubt have to agree, "man is created in the image of god". If god is illogical, why does that NOT work for us, if we are created in his image ?

His god is perfect. Is perfection "illogical", and not self-consistent ?
If god is omniscient, (knows what the future is), then there is no free will.

Sounds like he's not up to the task .. depending where he takes it, there are many other ways to deal with this subject.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-08-2012, 04:26 PM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2012 04:41 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: God and Logic
(05-08-2012 11:49 AM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  I'm currently in a speech class at my local community college (dual credit, I am still a high schooler.) My teacher is fairly religious, believes in God and what not, the Christian God, but is not a preacher to my class. However, a class or two ago, he said a few things about God and logic to the class, which I would like to discuss now.

We talked about logical fallacies. He taught us about ad hominem, reduction ad absurdum, etc. Then, he told us about God. Paraphrased as best I can,

"We deal with humans with logic, call it the horizontal axis. We deal with God on another axis, the vertical axis. God doesn't have to follow logic, folks. If God followed logic, why did my son have to die? Why do children starve? Don't even try to defend the Virgin Birth, or walking on water. You simply can't. And so we just take these on faith. In your upper level third and fourth year classes, they might say that all of these things contradict and everything is a mess, but that's not true. We can't apply logic to God."

I dispute this for several reasons. Digressing a bit, he blatantly mislead people about math and logic (how I took it.) He gave us the missing dollar riddle (here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?...52AAPoPPe, you might have heard it before.) He told us that the answer really depends on how you do the problem, and there is no absolute (instead of the answer that there is a false conclusion in the $29 result. I forgot how the riddle works at the time, so I couldn't dispute it.)

And so, the first assault on logic.

Next, the statement "God doesn't follow logic". First, you can't say this because your son died, and children starve. That makes no kind of sense. Besides, this is assuming God exists in the first place.

Now I want to get away from my speech teacher and more about the actual statement.

I came up with this on my own, so I don't know if its sound. First, if God doesn't follow logic, then you cannot make any logical statements about him (which, is a logical statement in itself. You cannot say anything about God but you can't say you can't say anything about God because that's a logical statement. It's all confusing.) "If I worship and believe and God, he will send me to Heaven" - that's a logical statement. God doesn't have to follow logic, so you can still go to Hell. But that also is a logical statement. Does this mean that a God without logic makes everything inherently unstable and incomprehensible? Does that mean that we can safely assume that logic must hold, even with God, because otherwise, nothing is understandable?

Second, if you can't apply logic to God, and you must take things on faith, then can't you make the same statements for any myth? I can take that human sacrifice makes it rain on faith (obviously he does not endorse this.) I can't apply logic, so who are you to tell me this is wrong? It's my faith! I don't see how you can refute anything by saying God doesn't follow logic. And if you can't refute anything, then anything goes, including suicide bombing, human sacrifice, mass murder, rape, etc.

See any significant problems with my counter arguments? I find the position that you cannot apply logic to be ridiculous. Especially given the points he made.

I love the special pleading here. Like a third grader wanting to do something that is against the rules, and trying to justify it with, "I wanna."

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-08-2012, 04:27 PM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2012 04:34 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: God and Logic
Quote:If God followed logic, why did my son have to die? Why do children starve? Don't even try to defend the Virgin Birth, or walking on water. You simply can't. And so we just take these on faith. In your upper level third and fourth year classes, they might say that all of these things contradict and everything is a mess, but that's not true. We can't apply logic to God.


It's like saying these rules make my make believe world impossible. So these rules don't apply.

A pouting adult, is very childish.

"Where there is evidence, no one speaks of 'faith'." - Bertrand Russell

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-08-2012, 07:50 PM
RE: God and Logic
I don't really want to confront him. I'm actually giving a speech on religion as it is (not hardcore atheist speech, more of a tolerance-type thing, which diverges slightly from my views. I advocate tolerance, but not respect for all views, though I advocate respect for all people) and I don't want to offend him nor anyone in my class. Besides, he's a nice guy, and I enjoy his class, and I don't want to ruin it.

Thank you for your inputs on the matter.

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned" - Anonymous
I am glad to live where there is no God, for I am moral, and mortal; I do not wish to worship He who crafts an immoral immortality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-08-2012, 08:14 PM
RE: God and Logic
"What's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true."
- Carl Sagan, The Dragon in My Garage from The Demon-Haunted World

Manifest Insanity @ Amazon
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-08-2012, 08:20 PM
RE: God and Logic
(05-08-2012 08:14 PM)Diogenes of Mayberry Wrote:  "What's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true."
- Carl Sagan, The Dragon in My Garage from The Demon-Haunted World

Whenever people ask me to prove there is no god, I say,
"Could you please make an appointment. I am busy today proving there is no 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto.
I will try to assist you, but you will have to keep your place in line, with all the other negatives I have been given." Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: