God and Man's Moral Nature
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27-11-2016, 04:09 PM
God and Man's Moral Nature
According to Christian theologians, God created man. And man's
nature. God then had three choices.
1. Man created with an evil nature.
2. Man created with an indifferent nature.
3. Man created with a good nature.

Why does moral evil exist? Many theologians tell us that if God
were to create us with a good nature, we would lose free will.
Of course the NT pretty much does not support the idea we have
free will to begin with. Predestination for example, from
Paul's Epistle to Romans. The idea that God in Romans 11
hardened the hearts of Jews to not believe in the messiah etc.

But there is a more serious objection. If God designs and
created us, he must have designed our moral nature. And God had
three choices.

1. Create man evil.
2. Create man morally indifferent.
3. Create man morally good.

But no matter our nature, God is responsible for choosing 1., 2.
or 3. By choosing 2., moral indifference, we do not gain any
sort of free will. We only get a moral nature prone to moral
failure. Since we get no choice, all is God's choice. If God is
good, then God must choose 3., a god-like moral nature and a
god-like free will such as God enjoys.

This to me also calls God's supposed foundation of morality in
question. If there is a perfect morality that is derived from
God, it would seem God would be a perfect moral being and chose
3. Creating man a moral being as any choice God makes creates
our morality. To fail to chose 3. is a moral failing.

Obviously the theologians will choose to deny 2., that as a
choice it creates a great deal on immorality due to God's
choice.

An problem with all of this is, if our moral choices are
constrained by our God created nature, we cannot be said to
enjoy libertarian free will.

This would seem to indicate that ideas that God creates all and
is perfectly good is a concept that logically cannot be true. A
God that supposedly creates all and is perfectly good does not
exist. Which claim are theologians willing to abandon to save
appearances?

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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09-12-2016, 03:34 PM
RE: God and Man's Moral Nature
Morality is relative and is subject to many different factors. In order for there to be immorality, there has to be an authority who decides what is immoral. Since the Christian God is perfect, there is no authority to judge him by. He has autonomy; thus, he can only judge himself.

The Bible clearly states God created sin and evil as well as predestined choices.

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09-12-2016, 04:16 PM
RE: God and Man's Moral Nature
Depends on your god.

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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09-12-2016, 06:08 PM
RE: God and Man's Moral Nature
Both the Bible and Quran and other supposed revelations claim God is defined as good. So what would a good God create man with anything other than a good moral nature, and a free will? Of course the argument here is if you have a nature created by God, that entails your free will is limited by your nature. But since any nature you have is created by God, you cannot have a truly libertarian free will. Why then would a perfectly moral God create us with anything less than a good nature? Such a God would not choose creating us with an evil, or ammoral nature, or an indifferent nature. Nor creating Jill with a good moral nature but John with an evil moral nature. This concept of God means theology has some explaining to do, which it can't. Our nature is dependent on God's choice only. God is said to allow original sin to exist. Same thing. God could by fiat eliminate original sin, so why doesn't he?

Both Islam and Christianity squarely claim God predestines all and is responsible for not giving all a good moral nature. Which then makes God not good.

If God decides to create Jill as one of the elect, and John reprobate, arbitrarily (see Romans 9 for example), God then is not just, or merciful, nor compassionate. And thus lacking these moral sub-goodnesses is not good.

This God does not make any sense at all, is inherently contradictory and impossible and thus is non-existent.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

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09-12-2016, 07:29 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2016 07:53 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: God and Man's Moral Nature
(09-12-2016 03:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Morality is relative and is subject to many different factors. In order for there to be immorality, there has to be an authority who decides what is immoral. Since the Christian God is perfect, there is no authority to judge him by. He has autonomy; thus, he can only judge himself.

The Bible clearly states God created sin and evil as well as predestined choices.

Everyone says their god is perfect.
A god who "judges" needs a something against which to make a judgement.
That amounts to it saying "It's moral because I say so".
That is not a "judgement".
It's meaningless drivel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-12-2016, 08:01 PM
RE: God and Man's Moral Nature
By Akatosh!

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

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13-12-2016, 07:08 AM
RE: God and Man's Moral Nature
(09-12-2016 03:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Morality is relative and is subject to many different factors. In order for there to be immorality, there has to be an authority who decides what is immoral. Since the Christian God is perfect, there is no authority to judge him by. He has autonomy; thus, he can only judge himself.

The Bible clearly states God created sin and evil as well as predestined choices.

Well, no. The Bible claims to be a revelation from God. Paul's theology claims that God has decided who will be elect and who reprobate from the beginning of creation. God the Potter makes some vessels to honor, some to dishonor. Et al. Romans. But the Bible claims God is good, God is Just, Fair, Merciful, Compassionate. But If God decides arbitrarily Jill is elect and John is not and thus is damned, it's not really any of those claimed attributes.

Now back to the OP, God has choices in making our mortal nature. Good, Evil, Indifferent, Ammoral or a mixed set as per Romans 8.

Why would a God who is supposedly perfectly moral choose less that good moral nature for all? Only God gets a choice. A god that makes any choice other than to create all men morally good in nature is not a good, moral being. Moral evil is caused by God's failure to maximize our nature.

This abstraction demonstrates that the God concept is self contradictory and fails the logic test.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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