God and logic
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-08-2012, 12:30 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2012 12:33 PM by Vosur.)
God and logic
When the logical contradiction of attributes ascribed to God, such as omnipotent and all-loving, are brought up in a debate with a theist, he will, according to my experience, choose one the following methods. He will usually either

(a) try to rationalize it, or
(b) claim that god does not need to follow the laws of logic

In case a theist chooses to reply with answer (b), you can point out that the concept of a being that is not bound by the rules of logic is so abstract that it's redundant to claim that you can know anything about it. But to those who attempt to use approach (a), I pose the following question.

Who or what created that laws of logic that god is bound by? Consider

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2012, 12:41 PM
RE: God and logic
(20-08-2012 12:30 PM)Vosur Wrote:  When the logical contradiction of attributes ascribed to God, such as omnipotent and all-loving, are brought up in a debate with a theist, he will, according to my experience, choose one the following methods. He will usually either

(a) try to rationalize it, or
(b) claim that god does not need to follow the laws of logic

In case a theist chooses to reply with answer (b), you can point out that the concept of a being that is not bound by the rules of logic is so abstract that it's redundant to claim that you can know anything about it. But to those who attempt to use approach (a), I pose the following question.

Who or what created that laws of logic that god is bound by? Consider

And while you're asking, please find out if god's powers are supernatural, or work by a science we have yet to understand? Does he use magical spells and a wand like Dumbledore or something else? Is there any magic that Dumbledore can do that God cannot do?Consider
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2012, 04:39 PM
RE: God and logic
I think it's a false dilemma. The answer is usually c) God's ways are a mystery. They simply claim not to know how such a being can hold 2 contradictory traits, but will insist that it must be possible because it happened.

It think they'd answer your second question the same way... who or what created the laws of logic? God's ways are a mystery, and yet we have logic and so it must have come into being however it came into being, but I don't understand how because God's ways are a mystery.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2012, 04:48 PM
RE: God and logic
I've encountered the two that you have said, and the C that starcrash suggested. I gave up trying to debate with these people, but I usually always asked, "If he's so god damn hard to understand, then what makes you think what you know is right?"

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Question's post
20-08-2012, 04:49 PM
RE: God and logic
(20-08-2012 12:30 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Who or what created that laws of logic that god is bound by? Consider

Well, if he is all-mighty and all-knowing and has a "perfect plan", we should be able to easily know that he exists (without others trying to convince me w/o actual evidence). And, of course, "he designed us", so if that the case OUR logic SHOULD be in line with HIS, wich clearly isnt the case...

if your faith can move mountains it should be able to withstand criticism
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes SomeOne's post
20-08-2012, 07:26 PM
RE: God and logic
(20-08-2012 12:30 PM)Vosur Wrote:  When the logical contradiction of attributes ascribed to God, such as omnipotent and all-loving, are brought up in a debate with a theist, he will, according to my experience, choose one the following methods. He will usually either

(a) try to rationalize it, or
(b) claim that god does not need to follow the laws of logic

In case a theist chooses to reply with answer (b), you can point out that the concept of a being that is not bound by the rules of logic is so abstract that it's redundant to claim that you can know anything about it. But to those who attempt to use approach (a), I pose the following question.

Who or what created that laws of logic that god is bound by? Consider

Logic just governs reason and the other constructs that come along with rationality such as human language and mathematics. The "laws" of logic, if that's what you choose to call them, were not created. Any rational being innately has the ability to reason and thus the capacity to use logic. So logic isn't created, it's understood and recognized. Logic, like the other constructs, is a construct for understanding through reason/rationality. It's used by humans, but unneeded by God. God already knows everything and understands everything.

Logic isn't something that is part of the physical world/nature either. It really doesn't actually exists but as a construct: it's purely metaphysical. God is supernatural: he isn't bound by the laws and properties of the physical word, he is the creator and controller of the laws and physical world. That, however, doesn't say anything about logic. Any claims about God being super-logical would be said by a theist to be misquotes, misrepresentations or just plain wrong, when applied to God.

There are no contradictions in the attributes of God. The contradictions are purely logical. The contradictions are within the human concepts. Take for example: Can God make a rock so massive he could not lift it? The problem there is that you are not really addressing God's power/strength or God's capabilities (omnipotence), because God is supernatural not super-logical, i.e. he doesn't have to make contradictory human concepts work. Those concepts are just ideas that we came up with to help us understand our perceptions, but they don't actually, when used in that way, apply to anything. God doesn't have to put a square block through a round hole, as those are contradictory human concepts. What God would actually do is change the block to fit the whole, the hole to fit the block or let one of the physical objects pass through the other physical object. He changes the nature and physics of things and physical laws.

Also, you have to think of God as you would quantum mechanics or Einstein's theories of relativity. The limitations are not in the reality, they are in the capacity of human beings ability to conceptualize and understand what is truly the case in reality.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TrulyX's post
20-08-2012, 07:37 PM
RE: God and logic
(20-08-2012 07:26 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(20-08-2012 12:30 PM)Vosur Wrote:  When the logical contradiction of attributes ascribed to God, such as omnipotent and all-loving, are brought up in a debate with a theist, he will, according to my experience, choose one the following methods. He will usually either

(a) try to rationalize it, or
(b) claim that god does not need to follow the laws of logic

In case a theist chooses to reply with answer (b), you can point out that the concept of a being that is not bound by the rules of logic is so abstract that it's redundant to claim that you can know anything about it. But to those who attempt to use approach (a), I pose the following question.

Who or what created that laws of logic that god is bound by? Consider

Logic just governs reason and the other constructs that come along with rationality such as human language and mathematics. The "laws" of logic, if that's what you choose to call them, were not created. Any rational being innately has the ability to reason and thus the capacity to use logic. So logic isn't created, it's understood and recognized. Logic, like the other constructs, is a construct for understanding through reason/rationality. It's used by humans, but unneeded by God. God already knows everything and understands everything.

Logic isn't something that is part of the physical world/nature either. It really doesn't actually exists but as a construct: it's purely metaphysical. God is supernatural: he isn't bound by the laws and properties of the physical word, he is the creator and controller of the laws and physical world. That, however, doesn't say anything about logic. Any claims about God being super-logical would be said by a theist to be misquotes, misrepresentations or just plain wrong, when applied to God.

There are no contradictions in the attributes of God. The contradictions are purely logical. The contradictions are within the human concepts. Take for example: Can God make a rock so massive he could not lift it? The problem there is that you are not really addressing God's power/strength or God's capabilities (omnipotence), because God is supernatural not super-logical, i.e. he doesn't have to make contradictory human concepts work. Those concepts are just ideas that we came up with to help us understand our perceptions, but they don't actually, when used in that way, apply to anything. God doesn't have to put a square block through a round hole, as those are contradictory human concepts. What God would actually do is change the block to fit the whole, the hole to fit the block or let one of the physical objects pass through the other physical object. He changes the nature and physics of things and physical laws.

Also, you have to think of God as you would quantum mechanics or Einstein's theories of relativity. The limitations are not in the reality, they are in the capacity of human beings ability to conceptualize and understand what is truly the case in reality.

Logic and reason are tools, especially useful for evaluating evidence.
Since there is no evidence for the existence of gods, logic and reason lead us to conclude that no gods exist.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Chas's post
20-08-2012, 07:44 PM
RE: God and logic
Me - "Is god aware of the two of us talking in this dimly lit back alley at midnight" ?
Theist "Yes, he is"

Me - "Is god aware that I have a loaded gun in my pocket" ?
Theist "If you have a loaded gun, Yes, god is aware of it"

Me - "Is god aware of my thoughts" ?
Theist "Yes, he is"

Me - "I am going to think of a whole number between 1-1000 and the number will not be 1 or 1000. You will ask god to tell you the number."
Theist - "What will happen if I don't guess the correct number" ?

Me - "You aren't guessing. You are asking god to tell you something that you claim he knows."
Theist "What will happen if the number I tell you doesn't match the number you are thinking of" ?

Me - "I am going to shoot you if the numbers don't match. Is there any reason why the numbers shouldn't match" ?
Theist "Look I don't want to die in some dark alley over a guessing game"

Me - "Just pray to god and listen to his voice. Listen for the number he is telling you"
Theist "Ok, (prays and prays and prays) I heard the number 828 in my head"

Me - "Is that the number you want to go with" ?
Theist "Yes, I have faith that god is telling me that this is the number"

Me - "You are right, that is the number I was thinking of"
Theist (sweat rolling down his face a large smile comes over him and he thanks god) "That is amazing. I have never had more faith in god than I do at this minute"

Me - "If you were really in touch with god, he would have told you to run away as fast as you can about 2 min ago. I was planning on shooting you either way
You only asked what happens if the numbers don't match. You never asked what happens if the numbers do match." --- BAM BAM - shot dead in the head

** Blind faith can get you killed. Critical thinking can help save your life **

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Rahn127's post
20-08-2012, 07:47 PM
RE: God and logic
[Image: 25248510.jpg]

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2012, 07:55 PM
RE: God and logic
(20-08-2012 12:30 PM)Vosur Wrote:  When the logical contradiction of attributes ascribed to God, such as omnipotent and all-loving, are brought up in a debate with a theist, he will, according to my experience, choose one the following methods. He will usually either

(a) try to rationalize it, or
(b) claim that god does not need to follow the laws of logic

In case a theist chooses to reply with answer (b), you can point out that the concept of a being that is not bound by the rules of logic is so abstract that it's redundant to claim that you can know anything about it. But to those who attempt to use approach (a), I pose the following question.

Logic only applies to the rules that we have. Logic is governed by our natural world. If God can operate outside our world, then not only does our logic not apply to Him, but He can also operate outside of our logic.

However, God also chose to reveal Himself to us through the natural world, so we can only conceive what He teaches us in the Bible through our laws and logic.

Basically - when it concerns God, as a whole, as a being, outside our world, then logic doesn't apply; however, when it concerns us, our world, how He reveals Himself to us, and how He instructs us, then we have to apply our logic to it because it's God operating in His own confines that He created for us.

Quote:Who or what created that laws of logic that god is bound by? Consider

God did. Operating outside of our logic, God is all powerful and all knowing; so therefore, He created His own logic.

But then again... this is only my logic being applied to try and answer an unknown logic.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: