God and logic
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-08-2012, 05:35 AM
RE: God and logic
Hey, Chas.

Quote:Logic and reason are tools, especially useful for evaluating evidence.
Since there is no evidence for the existence of gods, logic and reason lead us to conclude that no gods exist.

I gotta disagree with you on this one. Logic pre-dates the scientific method by millennia. It has many applications outside of science; most notably in philosophy.

Logic and reason do not lead us to conclude that no God exists. that doesn't mean God does exist or that one cannot lack a belief in him, but that logic and reason do not do what you are claiming they do.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Ghost's post
21-08-2012, 09:06 AM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 05:35 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

Quote:Logic and reason are tools, especially useful for evaluating evidence.
Since there is no evidence for the existence of gods, logic and reason lead us to conclude that no gods exist.

I gotta disagree with you on this one. Logic pre-dates the scientific method by millennia. It has many applications outside of science; most notably in philosophy.

Logic and reason do not lead us to conclude that no God exists. that doesn't mean God does exist or that one cannot lack a belief in him, but that logic and reason do not do what you are claiming they do.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

You are disagreeing with what I didn't say.
It's the evidence evaluated using logic and reason.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
21-08-2012, 09:25 AM
RE: God and logic
(20-08-2012 07:44 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Me - "Is god aware of the two of us talking in this dimly lit back alley at midnight" ?
Theist "Yes, he is"

Me - "Is god aware that I have a loaded gun in my pocket" ?
Theist "If you have a loaded gun, Yes, god is aware of it"

Me - "Is god aware of my thoughts" ?
Theist "Yes, he is"

Me - "I am going to think of a whole number between 1-1000 and the number will not be 1 or 1000. You will ask god to tell you the number."
Theist - "What will happen if I don't guess the correct number" ?

Me - "You aren't guessing. You are asking god to tell you something that you claim he knows."
Theist "What will happen if the number I tell you doesn't match the number you are thinking of" ?

Me - "I am going to shoot you if the numbers don't match. Is there any reason why the numbers shouldn't match" ?
Theist "Look I don't want to die in some dark alley over a guessing game"

Me - "Just pray to god and listen to his voice. Listen for the number he is telling you"
Theist "Ok, (prays and prays and prays) I heard the number 828 in my head"

Me - "Is that the number you want to go with" ?
Theist "Yes, I have faith that god is telling me that this is the number"

Me - "You are right, that is the number I was thinking of"
Theist (sweat rolling down his face a large smile comes over him and he thanks god) "That is amazing. I have never had more faith in god than I do at this minute"

Me - "If you were really in touch with god, he would have told you to run away as fast as you can about 2 min ago. I was planning on shooting you either way
You only asked what happens if the numbers don't match. You never asked what happens if the numbers do match." --- BAM BAM - shot dead in the head

** Blind faith can get you killed. Critical thinking can help save your life **

Nice Yes

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-08-2012, 09:30 AM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2012 09:40 AM by Vosur.)
RE: God and logic
(20-08-2012 07:26 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  Logic just governs reason and the other constructs that come along with rationality such as human language and mathematics. The "laws" of logic, if that's what you choose to call them, were not created. Any rational being innately has the ability to reason and thus the capacity to use logic. So logic isn't created, it's understood and recognized. Logic, like the other constructs, is a construct for understanding through reason/rationality. It's used by humans, but unneeded by God. God already knows everything and understands everything.

Logic isn't something that is part of the physical world/nature either. It really doesn't actually exists but as a construct: it's purely metaphysical. God is supernatural: he isn't bound by the laws and properties of the physical word, he is the creator and controller of the laws and physical world. That, however, doesn't say anything about logic. Any claims about God being super-logical would be said by a theist to be misquotes, misrepresentations or just plain wrong, when applied to God.

There are no contradictions in the attributes of God. The contradictions are purely logical. The contradictions are within the human concepts. Take for example: Can God make a rock so massive he could not lift it? The problem there is that you are not really addressing God's power/strength or God's capabilities (omnipotence), because God is supernatural not super-logical, i.e. he doesn't have to make contradictory human concepts work. Those concepts are just ideas that we came up with to help us understand our perceptions, but they don't actually, when used in that way, apply to anything. God doesn't have to put a square block through a round hole, as those are contradictory human concepts. What God would actually do is change the block to fit the whole, the hole to fit the block or let one of the physical objects pass through the other physical object. He changes the nature and physics of things and physical laws.

Also, you have to think of God as you would quantum mechanics or Einstein's theories of relativity. The limitations are not in the reality, they are in the capacity of human beings ability to conceptualize and understand what is truly the case in reality.

(20-08-2012 07:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Logic only applies to the rules that we have. Logic is governed by our natural world. If God can operate outside our world, then not only does our logic not apply to Him, but He can also operate outside of our logic.

However, God also chose to reveal Himself to us through the natural world, so we can only conceive what He teaches us in the Bible through our laws and logic.

Basically - when it concerns God, as a whole, as a being, outside our world, then logic doesn't apply; however, when it concerns us, our world, how He reveals Himself to us, and how He instructs us, then we have to apply our logic to it because it's God operating in His own confines that He created for us.

Quote:Who or what created that laws of logic that god is bound by? Consider

God did. Operating outside of our logic, God is all powerful and all knowing; so therefore, He created His own logic.

But then again... this is only my logic being applied to try and answer an unknown logic.

Both replies boil down to argument (b), which is that god does not have to be logical. As I've said, it's irrational to claim to know anything about such a deity, one that, according to the "human concept", as you put it, refutes it's own existence, one that cannot be grasped by a human mind, one that does not have to make any sense at all.

Example: "God farted, which caused the universe to come into existence and then he destroyed it again and that's why we are butterflies."

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-08-2012, 09:55 AM
RE: God and logic
(20-08-2012 07:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  1. Logic only applies to the rules that we have. Logic is governed by our natural world. If God can operate outside our world, then not only does our logic not apply to Him, but He can also operate outside of our logic.

2. However, God also chose to reveal Himself to us through the natural world, so we can only conceive what He teaches us in the Bible through our laws and logic.

3. Basically - when it concerns God, as a whole, as a being, outside our world, then logic doesn't apply; however, when it concerns us, our world, how He reveals Himself to us, and how He instructs us, then we have to apply our logic to it because it's God operating in His own confines that He created for us.

4. God did. Operating outside of our logic, God is all powerful and all knowing; so therefore, He created His own logic.

If god(s) are perfect they operate according to something consistent. Whatever you happen to call that, is irrelevant. If your god(s) are capricious, I'm not interested in your god(s).
1. Metaphysicians would beg to differ with that.
2. Gods could reveal themselves anyway they wanted, if they were omnipotent, and they would not be constrained by anything that we consider "logical", or "natural".
3. That is Special Pleading. Basically , #3 is also refuted by my answer #2.
4. You contradicted yourself in #4, by #1. If gods have a logic they have to operate by "creating" it, by what standard did a (presumably) non-capricious god, create that "logic". If the standard already existed, god is not the creator of it's own logic. If if did not already exist, or is capricious, the word "logic" is not applicable here.

Basically I want to know if god can create a dildo so big it cannot stick it up it's own ass. Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
21-08-2012, 10:02 AM
RE: God and logic
Bucky and Vosur:

Yes, by defying logic it is beyond our comprehension.

This is why God uses our logic to reveal His seemingly illogical abilities. God teaches through the Bible, and He knows that we are bound by our own logic, which is why He reveals Himself in ways that our logic can understand and interpret.

Some questions are unanswerable and paradoxical - but we try our best through our own logic.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-08-2012, 10:40 AM
RE: God and logic
Hey, Chas.

No I didn't. You said that because there is no evidence "logic and reason lead us to conclude that no gods exist." They don't. The fact that there is no evidence is irrefutable, but logic and reason don't tell us IF no evidence THEN no existence.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-08-2012, 10:42 AM
RE: God and logic
(20-08-2012 07:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(20-08-2012 12:30 PM)Vosur Wrote:  When the logical contradiction of attributes ascribed to God, such as omnipotent and all-loving, are brought up in a debate with a theist, he will, according to my experience, choose one the following methods. He will usually either

(a) try to rationalize it, or
(b) claim that god does not need to follow the laws of logic

In case a theist chooses to reply with answer (b), you can point out that the concept of a being that is not bound by the rules of logic is so abstract that it's redundant to claim that you can know anything about it. But to those who attempt to use approach (a), I pose the following question.

Logic only applies to the rules that we have. Logic is governed by our natural world. If God can operate outside our world, then not only does our logic not apply to Him, but He can also operate outside of our logic.

However, God also chose to reveal Himself to us through the natural world, so we can only conceive what He teaches us in the Bible through our laws and logic.

Basically - when it concerns God, as a whole, as a being, outside our world, then logic doesn't apply; however, when it concerns us, our world, how He reveals Himself to us, and how He instructs us, then we have to apply our logic to it because it's God operating in His own confines that He created for us.

Quote:Who or what created that laws of logic that god is bound by? Consider

God did. Operating outside of our logic, God is all powerful and all knowing; so therefore, He created His own logic.

But then again... this is only my logic being applied to try and answer an unknown logic.

You know, I gave you an "out" with my answer. But your certainty isn't based on scripture, testable evidence, or seemingly anything but your ability to appear certain.

If you don't know the answer, the answer is "I don't know". If you want to make statements of fact, you really ought to cite them. If you want to guess, then please make that clear.

If your logical premise is that 1) God is all-powerful and all-knowing, 2) therefore God created his own logic, there needs to be explanatory steps in between, because one step doesn't logically follow the other as is.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-08-2012, 10:49 AM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 10:40 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

No I didn't. You said that because there is no evidence "logic and reason lead us to conclude that no gods exist." They don't. The fact that there is no evidence is irrefutable, but logic and reason don't tell us IF no evidence THEN no existence.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Why, yes they do. They don't provide proof, they provide us a reasonable conclusion. A reasonable person concludes that the lack of evidence that should reasonable be there is sufficient as evidence for non-existence. Not proof, reasonable conclusion.

This is pragmatic, not mathematic.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
21-08-2012, 11:06 AM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 10:42 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(20-08-2012 07:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Logic only applies to the rules that we have. Logic is governed by our natural world. If God can operate outside our world, then not only does our logic not apply to Him, but He can also operate outside of our logic.

However, God also chose to reveal Himself to us through the natural world, so we can only conceive what He teaches us in the Bible through our laws and logic.

Basically - when it concerns God, as a whole, as a being, outside our world, then logic doesn't apply; however, when it concerns us, our world, how He reveals Himself to us, and how He instructs us, then we have to apply our logic to it because it's God operating in His own confines that He created for us.


God did. Operating outside of our logic, God is all powerful and all knowing; so therefore, He created His own logic.

But then again... this is only my logic being applied to try and answer an unknown logic.

You know, I gave you an "out" with my answer. But your certainty isn't based on scripture, testable evidence, or seemingly anything but your ability to appear certain.

If you don't know the answer, the answer is "I don't know". If you want to make statements of fact, you really ought to cite them. If you want to guess, then please make that clear.

If your logical premise is that 1) God is all-powerful and all-knowing, 2) therefore God created his own logic, there needs to be explanatory steps in between, because one step doesn't logically follow the other as is.

Of course my ultimate answer is, "I don't know."

The only thing that is addressed in scripture is God's omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. Everything else is mum.

So, I'm just using my logic to come to conclusions to the question asked. I'm not sure what you want me to cite.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: