God and logic
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21-08-2012, 11:28 AM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 11:06 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 10:42 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  You know, I gave you an "out" with my answer. But your certainty isn't based on scripture, testable evidence, or seemingly anything but your ability to appear certain.

If you don't know the answer, the answer is "I don't know". If you want to make statements of fact, you really ought to cite them. If you want to guess, then please make that clear.

If your logical premise is that 1) God is all-powerful and all-knowing, 2) therefore God created his own logic, there needs to be explanatory steps in between, because one step doesn't logically follow the other as is.

Of course my ultimate answer is, "I don't know."

The only thing that is addressed in scripture is God's omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. Everything else is mum.

So, I'm just using my logic to come to conclusions to the question asked. I'm not sure what you want me to cite.

So why try to prove God with your own logic if he does not exist in your realm of logic? With argument "B", you have created a paradox of hypocrisy.

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21-08-2012, 11:40 AM
RE: God and logic
(20-08-2012 12:30 PM)Vosur Wrote:  When the logical contradiction of attributes ascribed to God, such as omnipotent and all-loving, are brought up in a debate with a theist, he will, according to my experience, choose one the following methods. He will usually either

(a) try to rationalize it, or
(b) claim that god does not need to follow the laws of logic

In case a theist chooses to reply with answer (b), you can point out that the concept of a being that is not bound by the rules of logic is so abstract that it's redundant to claim that you can know anything about it. But to those who attempt to use approach (a), I pose the following question.

Who or what created that laws of logic that god is bound by? Consider

I think the greater question is beyond creation and logic, what responsibility has been laid out for the creator before creation, both his own and our own, that gave him purpose to begin any process that defined the worth of a heaven and a hell for him to reside authority in when, in fact somehow, the only object that he is credited to designing from his own image...are humans?

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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21-08-2012, 11:48 AM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 11:40 AM)Matthew Laramore Wrote:  
(20-08-2012 12:30 PM)Vosur Wrote:  When the logical contradiction of attributes ascribed to God, such as omnipotent and all-loving, are brought up in a debate with a theist, he will, according to my experience, choose one the following methods. He will usually either

(a) try to rationalize it, or
(b) claim that god does not need to follow the laws of logic

In case a theist chooses to reply with answer (b), you can point out that the concept of a being that is not bound by the rules of logic is so abstract that it's redundant to claim that you can know anything about it. But to those who attempt to use approach (a), I pose the following question.

Who or what created that laws of logic that god is bound by? Consider

I think the greater question is beyond creation and logic, what responsibility has been laid out for the creator before creation, both his own and our own, that gave him purpose to begin any process that defined the worth of a heaven and a hell for him to reside authority in when, in fact somehow, the only object that he is credited to designing from his own image...are humans?

What? What does that even mean?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-08-2012, 12:05 PM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 11:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 11:40 AM)Matthew Laramore Wrote:  I think the greater question is beyond creation and logic, what responsibility has been laid out for the creator before creation, both his own and our own, that gave him purpose to begin any process that defined the worth of a heaven and a hell for him to reside authority in when, in fact somehow, the only object that he is credited to designing from his own image...are humans?

What? What does that even mean?

In other words, what gave purpose to the creator before creation, to not only himself but also his haven before he designed our existence since accordingly, it is only humans that are given the upper hand in the "fact" that we were the only objects to be created through his image, while everything else is just a scribble? If this creator claimed residence in heaven, which he scribbled before everything else, what gave the haven and/or him purpose before us? Like what gives "nothing" any merit before it becomes "something", if that "something" is dependent on "everything" pretending it is superior by camouflaging still as "nothing?"

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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21-08-2012, 12:09 PM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 12:05 PM)Matthew Laramore Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 11:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  What? What does that even mean?

In other words, what gave purpose to the creator before creation, to not only himself but also his haven before he designed our existence since accordingly, it is only humans that are given the upper hand in the "fact" that we were the only objects to be created through his image, while everything else is just a scribble? If this creator claimed residence in heaven, which he scribbled before everything else, what gave the haven and/or him purpose before us? Like what gives "nothing" any merit before it becomes "something", if that "something" is dependent on "everything" pretending it is superior by camouflaging still as "nothing?"

Are you saying:

"What gave purpose to the objects created before the creator?"

I don't want to seem stupid, but you aren't making any sense here.

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21-08-2012, 12:10 PM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 12:05 PM)Matthew Laramore Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 11:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  What? What does that even mean?

In other words, what gave purpose to the creator before creation, to not only himself but also his haven before he designed our existence since accordingly, it is only humans that are given the upper hand in the "fact" that we were the only objects to be created through his image, while everything else is just a scribble? If this creator claimed residence in heaven, which he scribbled before everything else, what gave the haven and/or him purpose before us? Like what gives "nothing" any merit before it becomes "something", if that "something" is dependent on "everything" pretending it is superior by camouflaging still as "nothing?"

What? What does that even mean?
Really, you string together a bunch of nonsense phrases.

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21-08-2012, 12:28 PM
RE: God and logic
It is not nonsense to question what responsibility came with a god and his heaven before earth and humans, especially when my own curiosity exceeds it further to also question their purposes. It is a demanding question especially when we humans are given the honor of being created in the creator's image alone, whilst all else, even his heavens, the oldest of his creations are not given that honor. Therefore, if we're that much more important what use were the heavens before the idea, or the creation of idea itself, after the making of such a haven that made us by default at birth not worthy of it before and after death?

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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21-08-2012, 12:34 PM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 12:28 PM)Matthew Laramore Wrote:  It is not nonsense to question what responsibility came with a god and his heaven before earth and humans, especially when my own curiosity exceeds it further to also question their purposes. It is a demanding question especially when we humans are given the honor of being created in the creator's image alone, whilst all else, even his heavens, the oldest of his creations are not given that honor. Therefore, if we're that much more important what use were the heavens before the idea, or the creation of idea itself, after the making of such a haven that made us by default at birth not worthy of it before and after death?

But since there is no evidence that your god even exists, your argument is feeble.

And please learn to use paragraphs. They're very helpful.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-08-2012, 12:51 PM
RE: God and logic
Lack of evidence exactly is what gives my curiosity as well as others water. I demand evidence for god as much as the next atheist, but I must also exercise my own need for understanding more as I am sure you know religion always has something new. My questions were questions, not so much arguments, although yes to a degree they can be argued for, but for my own point of view, this is what I've always wondered for years. Purpose and responsibility before humans and our free will.

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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21-08-2012, 01:08 PM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 12:51 PM)Matthew Laramore Wrote:  ... as I am sure you know religion always has something new.

There is nothing new in religion that I can see. Please explain.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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