God and logic
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-08-2012, 09:44 PM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 09:36 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If you describe and define god as a non-existent entity, ie: doesn't reside in the universe, has no material presence, no visible presence, can't be detected, then by definition, aren't you saying god doesn't exist ?

Well... it seems fair to say that putting God outside of existence would make him non-existent, but the singularity that caused the Big Bang was also outside of time and space. We just don't know enough about what those conditions are like to describe them. I myself have argued that God could not "cause the universe to exist" because he's outside of time and causality requires time, but that doesn't explain how a singularity outside of time would do it, either.

My personal hypothesis is that time always existed. It's a loop without beginning or end, like the surface of a sphere or the side of a mobius strip. I just can't imagine how time could "begin"... it just had to be there. I would personally argue that God couldn't have created time for exactly this reason.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-08-2012, 09:47 PM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 09:36 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If you describe and define god as a non-existent entity, ie: doesn't reside in the universe, has no material presence, no visible presence, can't be detected, then by definition, aren't you saying god doesn't exist ?

If one is asking questions about a deity's qualities, is one questioning the very existence of a deity? Star was addressing the question, and not Vosur's beliefs. I was stating that he question does not imply the non-existence of a deity, it implies there had to have been a creator for God.

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-08-2012, 11:10 PM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 10:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Bucky and Vosur:

Yes, by defying logic it is beyond our comprehension.

This is why God uses our logic to reveal His seemingly illogical abilities. God teaches through the Bible, and He knows that we are bound by our own logic, which is why He reveals Himself in ways that our logic can understand and interpret.

Some questions are unanswerable and paradoxical - but we try our best through our own logic.

Pray to god, and have him reveal a useful equation.

Oh wait. God only cares about human behavior, not human progress....

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-08-2012, 11:11 PM
RE: God and logic
The thing is, when someone describes something in non-existent terms and then claims existence, it seems kind of silly.
It also seems silly to try and describe the properties of something when you know nothing about it.

I have a multifaceted field of force somewhere in the universe. I want you to tell me how big it is, how many facets it has, it's location in the universe and tell me what's inside of it.
Once you've done all of that, explain how this field of force was created and how I sustain it's existence.

Anyone who claims to know any of these properties is simply wishful thinking. That is what god is. It's a mental construct made up of the properties we wish it to have.
You can no more claim to know anything about my field of force somewhere in the universe than you can claim to know anything about a mental construct we call god.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Rahn127's post
22-08-2012, 05:05 AM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 11:11 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  The thing is, when someone describes something in non-existent terms and then claims existence, it seems kind of silly.
It also seems silly to try and describe the properties of something when you know nothing about it.

I have a multifaceted field of force somewhere in the universe. I want you to tell me how big it is, how many facets it has, it's location in the universe and tell me what's inside of it.
Once you've done all of that, explain how this field of force was created and how I sustain it's existence.

Anyone who claims to know any of these properties is simply wishful thinking. That is what god is. It's a mental construct made up of the properties we wish it to have.
You can no more claim to know anything about my field of force somewhere in the universe than you can claim to know anything about a mental construct we call god.

We are assuming that the deity exists in a figurative sense in order to understand and criticize the position of theists.
So be it.

We are not the ones making the claims. We are the ones asking how that is logical.

Congrats. You are an atheist.

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-08-2012, 10:54 AM
RE: God and logic
(21-08-2012 04:48 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Actually, it does.

Logic is being used in quantum mechanics as well (see above). Furthermore, where do you see the parallels between quantum mechanics and a faith-based belief?

Firstly, I was using the term 'physics' philosophically--I was referring just to nature/the physical world/reality-- not the scientific field specifically, and that was separate from my example of quantum mechanics. So, the fact that somebody came up with another form of logic, specifically to it apply quantum mechanics, is irrelevant, though the fact that it was necessary to do so kind of works toward my point.

When referring to quantum mechanics, I was just pointing out how you have to approach things broadly. Specifically, you should not assume that you should be able to easily comprehend and understand what actually takes place in reality. The way we perceive things and come to understand things as humans doesn't have to fall in line with reality at all. Hence the quote: "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." I was referring even to other things like the difficulty of imagining something that seems like an easy concept, such as imagining a curved three-dimensional space or a multiple dimensions in general.

That really wasn't referring to a faith-based belief as much as it was how you have to view the concept of God:...............

Quote:Then we were talking about two different things. As stated in the OP, I was talking about the attributes of god specifically.

..........It's better to think about whether or not the contradictions are just contradictory ideas that you are applying yourself then calling them contradictory attributes of God; i.e., are the ideas contradictory or is it the way you are manipulating the ideas and concepts?

I was really just trying to get you to think about that.

It's easy to say that there is a problem with omniscience, omnibenevolence and omnipotence. You just have to question the nature of those ideas themselves, ways in which they could be applied, and what would be realistic limitations built in to those words by reality. That's why I was mentioning logic, contradictions, and paradoxes.

Quote:I'd agree with that. Yes

I wasn't really disagreeing with you on the other stuff as much as I trying to provide and argument for theists.

Theists based everything off of faith and BS, but that doesn't automatically take away the possibility that they could be right. It's always good to make sure you are giving any opposing side of any argument as much strength as possible. It's always good to argue against the strongest possible argument, and never just a weak argument or a strawman.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: