God and nothing
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23-06-2014, 10:27 AM
God and nothing
Let's imagine a god exists, because frankly, that's the only way to insert a god into conversation and this god exists at a time billions of trillions of years before the universe came to be. I know time is dependent on other factors, so just sweep that bit under the rug and since we are using our imagination, we can toss out things that might not make sense to our current day modern minds.

We have this god and we have a whole bunch of nothing.

If there is nothing to know, then what does god know ?
If god is not made of anything, then all we have is nothing.
What does this god think about ? and how did he end up in this prison like void ?
He can't see anything, nor hear anything, so what could his mind even do ?

For billions & trillions of years and billions more, this being is conscious of nothing.
Is it even conscious ? Isn't consciousness of nothing, unconsiousness ?

Would you really consider this being a god ?
What does all powerful mean in a place where there is nothing ?

When you think about how a being ended up in an empty void for untold amounts of time, you have to also think about what this being must have done to deserve a punishment like that.

And if this being was being punished for a crime, then it's likely that it was also stripped of any power or abilities of any kind before being placed in the void.

More than likely, he's not the only being that has been placed in a void like this.
Given the countless other beings that could exist in other empty prison like voids, why would you think that our universe came into existence in one of those voids with one of those beings ?

In other words, given all the seeds in the world that have a natural root system in the ground, why would you think your flower seed is sprouting roots in a small bit of dirt in a prison cell plastic cup ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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23-06-2014, 11:40 AM
RE: God and nothing
(23-06-2014 10:27 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Let's imagine a god exists, because frankly, that's the only way to insert a god into conversation and this god exists at a time billions of trillions of years before the universe came to be. I know time is dependent on other factors, so just sweep that bit under the rug and since we are using our imagination, we can toss out things that might not make sense to our current day modern minds.

We have this god and we have a whole bunch of nothing.

If there is nothing to know, then what does god know ?
If god is not made of anything, then all we have is nothing.
What does this god think about ? and how did he end up in this prison like void ?
He can't see anything, nor hear anything, so what could his mind even do ?

For billions & trillions of years and billions more, this being is conscious of nothing.
Is it even conscious ? Isn't consciousness of nothing, unconsiousness ?

Would you really consider this being a god ?
What does all powerful mean in a place where there is nothing ?

When you think about how a being ended up in an empty void for untold amounts of time, you have to also think about what this being must have done to deserve a punishment like that.

And if this being was being punished for a crime, then it's likely that it was also stripped of any power or abilities of any kind before being placed in the void.

More than likely, he's not the only being that has been placed in a void like this.
Given the countless other beings that could exist in other empty prison like voids, why would you think that our universe came into existence in one of those voids with one of those beings ?

In other words, given all the seeds in the world that have a natural root system in the ground, why would you think your flower seed is sprouting roots in a small bit of dirt in a prison cell plastic cup ?

You're talking about the problem of divine lonesomeness, a consciousness with nothing to be conscious of which is a contradiction. It can't exist. It is possible for a consciousness to be conscious of itself as the object but only after it is conscious first of some object independent of itself. This is called the principle of the secondary objectivity of consciousness. A consciousness can be conscious of itself perceiving an external object.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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23-06-2014, 12:23 PM
RE: God and nothing
This idea doesn't really disprove the possibility of God, but it does show how incomprehensible concepts like infinity are for us.

I'm pretty sure most Christians consider God made heaven before Earth, which means there was a finite amount of time where heaven existed and Earth didn't, but an infinite amount of time before heaven existed. And, yeah, that's ridiculous to comprehend and attempt to fathom. I'm sure believers will use the absurdity of it all to point to how truly awesome God is, while we'll look at it as a poorly thought-out story where people wanted to make their God awesomer than all the other gods on the block.

At least, that's how all the omni-stuff strikes me. I know I've seen at least two Christians claim that their religion is the best because their god makes the biggest claims. Ugh. Besides, they're wrong. Technically Mormons hold that distinction. Oops.
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23-06-2014, 10:03 PM
RE: God and nothing
I'm a bit confused here. I like the argument, but doesn't it apply both ways (big bang vs gawddidit)? I mean this really only shows the limitations of human understandings, right?

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24-06-2014, 09:04 AM
RE: God and nothing
And when the world began, I'd been asleep forever. I opened one eye, twas then it was I got the whim to wake.
And then the weight of space, rolled like it was an ocean. One became one, father and son watched the sunrise break.
- 'God Speaks of Marty Robbins', by The Who.

Just made me think of that song.

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24-06-2014, 09:30 AM
RE: God and nothing
I have to say that I quite like the argument. I've long argued that you can only be as intelligent as your environment allows. I use the term environment in the broadest sense here to mean whatever provides input to your senses and can be affected by your actions.

You may imagine yourself being incarcerated in a big black box deprived of all your senses (hearing, sight, touch, smell, proprioception) and imagine yourself still capable of intelligent thought, but for how long? What if you were born in that box?

What is intelligence? A useful working definition is that intelligence is the ability to adapt to a new environment, situation or event. If not then you could argue that a telephone directory is intelligent.

Christian arguments for the existence of God depend upon God being outside of the universe, where the universe is defined as being absolutely everything else that isn't God. It's completely mad but that's what they need to do if they are going to argue that God is responsible for first cause.

This means that if God existed before the universe did then God would not be able to act intelligently, unless of course there had been a previous universe but this doesn't solve the Christian problem of arguing for God being first cause.

tl;dr If God caused the universe then God did not do so intelligently or with purpose. Therefore God as an intelligent creator cannot exist.
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24-06-2014, 11:14 AM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2014 01:06 PM by Impulse.)
RE: God and nothing
(23-06-2014 10:27 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Let's imagine a god exists, because frankly, that's the only way to insert a god into conversation and this god exists at a time billions of trillions of years before the universe came to be. I know time is dependent on other factors, so just sweep that bit under the rug and since we are using our imagination, we can toss out things that might not make sense to our current day modern minds.

We have this god and we have a whole bunch of nothing.

If there is nothing to know, then what does god know ?
If god is not made of anything, then all we have is nothing.
What does this god think about ? and how did he end up in this prison like void ?
He can't see anything, nor hear anything, so what could his mind even do ?

For billions & trillions of years and billions more, this being is conscious of nothing.
Is it even conscious ? Isn't consciousness of nothing, unconsiousness ?

Would you really consider this being a god ?
What does all powerful mean in a place where there is nothing ?

When you think about how a being ended up in an empty void for untold amounts of time, you have to also think about what this being must have done to deserve a punishment like that.

And if this being was being punished for a crime, then it's likely that it was also stripped of any power or abilities of any kind before being placed in the void.

More than likely, he's not the only being that has been placed in a void like this.
Given the countless other beings that could exist in other empty prison like voids, why would you think that our universe came into existence in one of those voids with one of those beings ?

In other words, given all the seeds in the world that have a natural root system in the ground, why would you think your flower seed is sprouting roots in a small bit of dirt in a prison cell plastic cup ?
I basically agree (although I think the punishment part gets a little carried away - JMHO). It gets even worse when you consider the belief of many that God simply "always was" and never came into being at all. I would imagine that, the minute God came into being, it would have created other things just to have something else, but when "came into being" is not even considered possible, then that whole line of thinking goes out the window. Everything else (at least that we know) is confined to time. Putting this all together, there had to be an infinite amount of time prior to the existence of anything else in which God existed with absolutely nothing else. (He probably spent literally endless hours masturbating, but I digress... Angel ) But, actually, since God supposedly exists outside of time, this makes no sense whatsoever... I'm so confused. Blink And that's the whole point. I can't make sense.

Edit:
It can't make sense.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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