God bless the second amendment
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11-02-2014, 02:07 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(11-02-2014 10:17 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  You're kidding right? First off that is not what the second amendment was intended to be. It was codifying a right to form a militia not a person stockpile of weapons.

No, I'm not kidding. It's *exactly* what the 2nd Amendment was intended for. A militia, in Constitutional terms, is nothing more than armed civilians. You can read about the history of militias in the colonies, leading up to the 2nd Amendment, here. http://www.history.army.mil/books/RevWar...CA-01.htm. The original concept for defense of the states and the young nation, was dependence on citizen militias, rather than standing armies.

Quote: Secondly every civilized country in the world either severely restricts access to weapons or requires intense training and personal responsibility, so saying that only a tyrannical dictatorship would seek to limit civilian access to heavy ordnance is insane.

I'm telling you the context of the 2nd Amendment. Whether it's insane, or wise, is a matter of opinion, but the context is a matter of fact.

Quote:If anything it shows a lack of foresight by the founders in not thinking about advances in weapons tech. Single shot smooth bore muskets to high powered riffles that can hit a target a mile away happened in just about 200 years.

Skim through the link I provide above, and you'll see they were well aware of advancing technology in weaponry. Obviously, they couldn't have foreseen nukes, Apache helicopters, B52s, ICBMs, etc., so there is some room for interpretation as to which 'arms' are included. But arms a battlefield soldier would be required to have, certainly would be included.

Quote: The fact that they allowed no room for advancement in the wording of the amendment has left us with what is now chaos. Then there is the fact that what is needed for half the country is in direct conflict with what the other half needs.

They left us the Amendment process. It's *supposed* to be hard to take these rights away. But the meaning of the 2nd Amendment, it's historical context - these are not open to interpretation for anyone honest. Their meaning is crystal clear.

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11-02-2014, 02:13 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(11-02-2014 12:16 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(11-02-2014 09:58 AM)toadaly Wrote:  But beyond merely the militia argument, those who founded the US believed that only a tyrannical government would want to disarm its citizens, so enshrining the right to have and bear arms would never be controversial. The fact that the 2nd Amendment is constantly being challenged, even though there is never talk of repealing it, proves the wisdom of the founders on this point.

The hidden assumption being here that the types of weapons the citizenry might own and the types of weapons an actual military might use would not be wildly divergent.

I don't think that's a hidden assumption, it was standard intent when the Constitution was written. Muskets were not the only battlefield weapons that existed. Artillery also existed, which were owned and manned originally by artillery companies - groups of patriotic private citizens who did this as a public service.

...an interesting read on the history of the Ancient and Honorable Artillery Company of Massachusetts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_and...sachusetts

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11-02-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(11-02-2014 02:13 PM)toadaly Wrote:  I don't think that's a hidden assumption, it was standard intent when the Constitution was written.

The assumption is that the original intent is in any way applicable to the present situation, given the utterly anachronistic nature of such a sentiment.

(11-02-2014 02:13 PM)toadaly Wrote:  Muskets were not the only battlefield weapons that existed.

Yes. I did not say otherwise.

(11-02-2014 02:13 PM)toadaly Wrote:  Artillery also existed, which were owned and manned originally by artillery companies - groups of patriotic private citizens who did this as a public service.

...an interesting read on the history of the Ancient and Honorable Artillery Company of Massachusetts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_and...sachusetts

Yes. Such things did (and technically still do) exist.

However: how many pieces of modern artillery does the present-day HAC operate outside of the military chain of command?

(11-02-2014 02:07 PM)toadaly Wrote:  But the meaning of the 2nd Amendment, it's historical context - these are not open to interpretation for anyone honest. Their meaning is crystal clear.

Which is precisely the thing. That the original intent and context are, in fact, quite knowable, is not germane to its application in the modern era. The original context was over 200 years ago and the original intent is irrelevant to modern realities.

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11-02-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(11-02-2014 02:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Which is precisely the thing. That the original intent and context are, in fact, quite knowable, is not germane to its application in the modern era. The original context was over 200 years ago and the original intent is irrelevant to modern realities.

In ordinary times yes, but as a fail-safe, who knows? However anachronistic it may be, it's still the law.

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11-02-2014, 04:01 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(11-02-2014 01:34 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(11-02-2014 10:14 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  Really? States have the right to declare war? Could Texas or Arizona invade Mexico if it felt threatened?

Did I say states have a right to declare war? I'm sorry, I don't engage people who have an excessive political agenda. Enjoy typing to yourself.

You said the second amendment was "to ensure that states can defend themselves independent of the federal government."

I'm struggling to see what else they'd mobilise an army for.
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11-02-2014, 04:48 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(11-02-2014 04:01 PM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  
(11-02-2014 01:34 PM)toadaly Wrote:  Did I say states have a right to declare war? I'm sorry, I don't engage people who have an excessive political agenda. Enjoy typing to yourself.

You said the second amendment was "to ensure that states can defend themselves independent of the federal government."

I'm struggling to see what else they'd mobilise an army for.

Invasion for example, with a failure of the federal government to fulfill it's duties of defense. This could happen, for example, if a foreign power took control of the federal chain of command. A second imaginable scenario, is a covert set of nukes being placed in DC, that a terrorist or foreign agent then sets off simultaneously, completely obliterating the entire chain of command without a declaration of war. States could then mobilize a secondary defense. I didn't have to try very hard to come up with two hypothetical situations that don't involve states issuing declarations of war.

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11-02-2014, 05:26 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(11-02-2014 03:28 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(11-02-2014 02:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Which is precisely the thing. That the original intent and context are, in fact, quite knowable, is not germane to its application in the modern era. The original context was over 200 years ago and the original intent is irrelevant to modern realities.

In ordinary times yes, but as a fail-safe, who knows? However anachronistic it may be, it's still the law.

The complete breakdown of civil society which is a necessary precursor to any running gunfights in the street also obviates whatever pertaining laws may pre-exist.

I get that to a lot of people it's a resonant statement with American foundational mythology, but so far as modern times are concerned it's a farcical fantasy.

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11-02-2014, 05:30 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(11-02-2014 04:48 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(11-02-2014 04:01 PM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  You said the second amendment was "to ensure that states can defend themselves independent of the federal government."

I'm struggling to see what else they'd mobilise an army for.

Invasion for example, with a failure of the federal government to fulfill it's duties of defense. This could happen, for example, if a foreign power took control of the federal chain of command. A second imaginable scenario, is a covert set of nukes being placed in DC, that a terrorist or foreign agent then sets off simultaneously, completely obliterating the entire chain of command without a declaration of war. States could then mobilize a secondary defense. I didn't have to try very hard to come up with two hypothetical situations that don't involve states issuing declarations of war.

Wouldn't they already have a military to mobilise in those circumstances? Surely there's enough army bases and National Guard members in America to be able to fight back without needing what would be little more than an unruly civilian mob with guns. They'd be nothing but cannon fodder to a trained army.
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11-02-2014, 06:29 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
The less weapons on the street the better. Just common sense really.
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11-02-2014, 08:14 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
Quote:This could happen, for example, if a foreign power took control of the federal chain of command.

Hmmm....I'd like to cut to the chase here. Do you mean a Kenyan muslim?

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