God bless the second amendment
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15-02-2014, 06:49 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(12-02-2014 06:49 PM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 02:51 PM)toadaly Wrote:  Guns exist, and people are going to get killed using them. This is true whether you have gun control or not.

Not really. There are places with strict gun control such as the UK where gun crime is so low the police aren't routinely armed. I grew up in the UK and in all my time there I've only ever seen guns at airports.

Quote:So it ends up being about personal values as to whether you support private ownership or not. In the US, it's a moot point due to the 2nd Amendment.

The second amendment is just a legal construct. If it was the will of the people it'd change. It isn't sacred.

I have lived in the UK for 51 years and have never seen a gun that wasn't a toy.
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15-02-2014, 06:57 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(12-02-2014 11:17 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 06:49 PM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  Not really. There are places with strict gun control such as the UK where gun crime is so low the police aren't routinely armed. I grew up in the UK and in all my time there I've only ever seen guns at airports.

...therefor they don't exist? http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/30/ukcrime1

That may be the case, but they are still illegal and, like I said, I live in the UK and have never seen one. It's not that I live in a well-to-do area either. I live in a city that is severely deprived and regularly comes top on national crime stats.
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15-02-2014, 07:16 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(09-02-2014 10:50 AM)UndercoverAtheist Wrote:  Firearms are an absolutely necessary part to living in America, because the government is becoming more tyrannical and police-esque every single day.

Disclaimer: I've never touched a gun, never will, and prefer to live in a gun-free community.

However, this IS a valid point, as is the argument that an armed populace is harder to overthrow. Here in Switzerland every family is given military weapons to keep in their home, and everybody gets military training. Yet the rate of gun violence is less than in the UK where nobody is allowed to have a gun. And, although this is something that, hopefully, will rarely be used, history shows us it HAS worked. During WWII, Switzerland cut off the direct route between Germany and Italy, so gaining access the alpine passes was a high priority. But, when the Nazi's started marching towards Switzerland, the Swiss were able to mobilize and within hours have half the population ready and waiting at the border, and it was a sufficient deterrent that the Nazi's didn't bother. The French, however, were not armed, and we saw what happened there. Or consider the US-Iraq war. Even though the US's military might was orders of magnitude greater than Iraq's, the US couldn't ever stop the resistance and get control because Iraqi civilians had guns and explosives and could use guerrilla warfare.

And domestically in the US hopefully Americans will wake up and demand change before it's too late. But, given the NSA's illegal program, Obama's suspension of habbeus corpus, and all the illegal activity to keep the ruling Republicrats in power, it's not unimaginable that there might be another rebellion uprising some day.
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15-02-2014, 07:44 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(09-02-2014 10:50 AM)UndercoverAtheist Wrote:  So what?

Many crimes such as this one you've posted have been committed without the use of firearms.

The Oklahoma bombing, to name one, (perhaps the worst case) was done without firearms.

People will always find ways to inflict harm on others, even if those others are unsuspecting.

Firearms are an absolutely necessary part to living in America, because the government is becoming more tyrannical and police-esque every single day.

Last year, homeland security ordered hundreds of thousands of rounds of hollow-point ammunition for stocking (killing ammo), what will they do with it? Well, the government claims that it is for law enforcement. However, I thought officers had guns to subdue criminals, not to kill them, and hollow point bullets surely will. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but the United States both smells and looks fishy in its communications and actions towards its people. Thus, it is absolutely necessary that the people of the United States have the ability to form militias in times of tyranny, and all of this school shooting propaganda portrayed in the liberal media is only making tyranny more affluent, while also making it harder for the people to stand up to their government.

Besides, more people die each day from illegally owned firearms than they do with legally owned firearms. How about we start stripping away guns from criminals, institute background checks and mental evaluations, and let freedom be.

There is no defiling the constitution in our nation, and it is one of the most perfect (still containing flaws) documents made by man, and to ban firearms would be unconstitutional by the second amendment. Sorry, but that is just how it has to be, national law under the constitution dictates it.

My "conservative" views may give insight to what I believe on this issue, but I only follow logic, not pre-planned and packaged ideals.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2...versation/ [Hollow point rounds purchased]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amen...nstitution

Obama's impeachment of the very foundations of our nation's liberty: “I want to work with Congress on this agenda where I can,” Mr. Obama said. “But in this year of action, whenever I can take steps without legislation to expand opportunity for more American families, I will.”

Video in which he states the aforementioned:




I'm sorry - but do you know what a hollow point is vs a full metal jacket? Your assumption that hollow points are more dangerous than any other kind of ammo means you've been taking TV and Hollywood too seriously. All ammo is "killing ammo". An officers firearm is for his protection, not to subdue anything. That's what his baton, pepper spray and TASER is for.

The police should be using hollow points! The only difference between the bullets is that a hollow point will stop inside the person it hits. Or the wall.

A full metal jacket will hit the person, then the person behind them, through the wall, through another person and so on until it finally stops.

It would be irresponsible to use any other bullet than hallow points.

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15-02-2014, 07:46 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(15-02-2014 07:16 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(09-02-2014 10:50 AM)UndercoverAtheist Wrote:  Firearms are an absolutely necessary part to living in America, because the government is becoming more tyrannical and police-esque every single day.

Disclaimer: I've never touched a gun, never will, and prefer to live in a gun-free community.

However, this IS a valid point, as is the argument that an armed populace is harder to overthrow. Here in Switzerland every family is given military weapons to keep in their home, and everybody gets military training. Yet the rate of gun violence is less than in the UK where nobody is allowed to have a gun. And, although this is something that, hopefully, will rarely be used, history shows us it HAS worked. During WWII, Switzerland cut off the direct route between Germany and Italy, so gaining access the alpine passes was a high priority. But, when the Nazi's started marching towards Switzerland, the Swiss were able to mobilize and within hours have half the population ready and waiting at the border, and it was a sufficient deterrent that the Nazi's didn't bother. The French, however, were not armed, and we saw what happened there. Or consider the US-Iraq war. Even though the US's military might was orders of magnitude greater than Iraq's, the US couldn't ever stop the resistance and get control because Iraqi civilians had guns and explosives and could use guerrilla warfare.

And domestically in the US hopefully Americans will wake up and demand change before it's too late. But, given the NSA's illegal program, Obama's suspension of habbeus corpus, and all the illegal activity to keep the ruling Republicrats in power, it's not unimaginable that there might be another rebellion uprising some day.

Hmmm, food for thought.
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15-02-2014, 07:51 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(15-02-2014 07:16 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Disclaimer: I've never touched a gun, never will, and prefer to live in a gun-free community.

I'm glad to know that I own many many firearms, including 4 sidearms, 5 rifles, and 3 shotguns....and you have none. :-p

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15-02-2014, 07:58 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(15-02-2014 07:51 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(15-02-2014 07:16 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Disclaimer: I've never touched a gun, never will, and prefer to live in a gun-free community.

I'm glad to know that I own many many firearms, including 4 sidearms, 5 rifles, and 3 shotguns....and you have none. :-p

I just have to ask... Why on earth would you need that many guns?

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15-02-2014, 08:18 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(13-02-2014 03:43 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 11:07 PM)Impulse Wrote:  My 2 cents:

The 2nd Amendment no longer applies as some people have already pointed out in this thread. Times have changed and it needs to be revised.

It no longer applies because the public drifted away from it as a legitimate deterrent to tyranny. I'd be happy to develop real citizen militias, similar to what they have in Switzerland."

Quote:Yes, criminals will continue to get guns and that's a real threat, but that's also why we have police officers who are properly trained to use them (not just in firing and aiming, but in when to use them and when not to). I realize the police can't be everywhere so I'm not opposed to some people owning pistols for self defense, but anything higher (e.g., semi-automatics) is overkill and unnecessary.

First off, the average police officer's skill with a firearm is appauling. They only receive a few hours of training at the acadamy and the only standard they are held to is a slow fire at a standard silouette target at 7 yards and must achieve a score of 70 or better, which is atrocious. I don't know how many ranges I've been to where cops show up to practice and indiscriminately chuck lead at a target and make groups more akin to a shotgun than anything else.

I own assault rifles and use them for personal protection at home. The idea of overkill, at least with a firearm like that is bullshit. I may not discharge a 30-rd mag into a perpetrator, but it sure is nice to have that and not need than need and not have.

Quote:Furthermore, even as self-defense, guns are dangerous. Criminals may get to the gun first. Alternatively, people may freeze when put in a self-defense situation and criminals may take their gun from them and use it against them.

No weapon is an absolute guarantee of personal safety, but I'd much rather have it and either shoot the guy or die trying than simply stand there and piss myself while the bad guy pumps me full of lead.

Quote: In the meantime, the more guns there are out there, the more likely it is that some idiots will leave them laying around where their kids can pick them up (as has happened too many times already). So there needs to be stricter laws and penalties regarding keeping guns locked up. And the more guns there are, the more accidents occur which happens far more often than many people know.

Agreed, but as I said to BrokenQuill, accidental shootings are a trivial risk if you consider that 400 children drown in buckets annually in the US.

Quote:Finally, not just anyone should be allowed to own a gun. There should be far more strict requirements for gun ownership. Things like gun show loopholes need to be closed. There should maybe even be psychological testing required. There should always be a waiting period to stop the impulsive buyers who buy out of anger for revenge and who might cool off with a little time. There is more to gun control than just banning certain guns.

You should read my post on the creation of an IPL. That would solve a lot of these problems while being minimally intrusive.

Agreed. Children and firearm accidents are terrible, but statistically, they have a 40% greater chance of dying in a car accident. But that doesn't stop parents from driving their kid around. We just have a greater emotional reaction to any accident with a gun, more so than an accidental pool drownin, etc.

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15-02-2014, 08:24 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(15-02-2014 07:58 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(15-02-2014 07:51 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I'm glad to know that I own many many firearms, including 4 sidearms, 5 rifles, and 3 shotguns....and you have none. :-p

I just have to ask... Why on earth would you need that many guns?

I do search and rescue. A lot of the missing are on drugs, or are suicidal. It's for my protection.

I also shoot skeet and trapt for fun. I'm a marksman.

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15-02-2014, 08:48 PM
RE: God bless the second amendment
(15-02-2014 06:57 PM)joben1 Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 11:17 PM)toadaly Wrote:  ...therefor they don't exist? http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/30/ukcrime1

That may be the case, but they are still illegal and, like I said, I live in the UK and have never seen one. It's not that I live in a well-to-do area either. I live in a city that is severely deprived and regularly comes top on national crime stats.

Why would you expect to see them? Even in the US, where guns are commonplace, hardly anyone ever sees guns that are not legally owned and used in legal ways.

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