God does endorse slavery
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
05-05-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: God does endorse slavery
(05-05-2015 12:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 12:06 PM)jennybee Wrote:  You're absolutely right--it was a culture from long ago. But that is all it was--a culture from long ago.

Yet, here we are passing moral judgements on them, even though our conditions are not even remotely similar, and if somehow they were, imagining we'd do things differently. Here we are, not acutely aware of their own moral dimensions and considerations. They conceded to a brutish world, but they weren't monsters, and their history as a people is one marred with a real moral struggle.

I still don't get this argument, which is made a lot. Yes, it would be accepted and often is as, that was a time with some poor standards for equality and ethical nature and it sucks.

It wouldn't be a problem of discussion, if OTHER people weren't frequently stating, these actions were the guiding light of a all powerful being that told people this was the thing to do, and this being is the guider of all life and righteous actions. Because there is nothing on Objective in this religious views moralistic ways if they say those ideas are bad now but were the orders of God.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-05-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: God does endorse slavery
(05-05-2015 12:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yet, here we are passing moral judgements on them, even though our conditions are not even remotely similar, and if somehow they were, imagining we'd do things differently. Here we are, not acutely aware of their own moral dimensions and considerations. They conceded to a brutish world, but they weren't monsters, and their history as a people is one marred with a real moral struggle.

So what context is there where rape is ok?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bad Wolf's post
05-05-2015, 12:40 PM
RE: God does endorse slavery
(05-05-2015 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 07:01 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  A creator god with anything close to omnipotence? Fuck no.
Why is that?


Because that was an answer to a previous question, lest you forget. The preceding back and forth was...

"When not even the sky is the limit, there is no scenario where slavery is the best possible option for a god who can do anything and actually cared to." -EK

"How about for people who can't do everything?" -Tomasia

In the context of actually giving a fuck and having the power to do something about it, god has no excuse. I fail to see why this is such a fucking hard concept to understand. The bullshit that gets trotted out to defend a god wouldn't past muster for the defense of a person before a war-crimes tribunal at the Hague, let alone something with the agency of a deity.



(05-05-2015 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why would an omnipotent God be required to make a world that exist any differently, and function any differently than the one we find ourselves in?


I'm not saying it has to. I'm just noting the classic problem of evil, in that you cannot claim a god is both all-powerful and actually gives a shit given the universe we find ourselves in. You can hypothetically or philosophically get away with one or the other, but evidently you cannot have both.


(05-05-2015 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Where we are sort of left to our own devices?


Sure, but a non-interventionist deity is identical to a non-existent one. Thus it tends not to be a popular line of defense for those trying to defend the power of prayer, salvation from sin, the prospect of an afterlife, and the supremely narcissistic notion that we are all special snowflakes created in the image of god.


(05-05-2015 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If our a world was product of omnipotent creator, would we assume than this creator must have been a cruel, vindictive being, some who must hate humanity? Or that he was indifferent to his creation? Created a world, left to function on it's own, got bored of it, and left it.


Once again, either he has the power and doesn't care to, or cares to but doesn't have the power; you cannot have both, and run-of-the-mill theists and apologists don't like picking one or the other.

If you want to espouse that our universe is the product of a cosmic extra-dimensional universe-creating being for the sake of an experiment, go right ahead. It isn't obviously logically contradictory or in conflict with our reality in the way an interventionist, omnipotent, and caring deity would; but I'll still point out that you don't have jack shit to back up that sort of assertion regardless.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like EvolutionKills's post
05-05-2015, 12:45 PM
RE: God does endorse slavery
(05-05-2015 12:30 PM)Bad Wolf Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 12:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yet, here we are passing moral judgements on them, even though our conditions are not even remotely similar, and if somehow they were, imagining we'd do things differently. Here we are, not acutely aware of their own moral dimensions and considerations. They conceded to a brutish world, but they weren't monsters, and their history as a people is one marred with a real moral struggle.

So what context is there where rape is ok?

It's never okay, but you can imagine scenarios (especially absurd ones) where rape might be the lesser of two evils. If you're being held at gunpoint by a madman and are being commanded to rape someone lest you both immediately be killed, then at that moment rape is the lesser of two evils.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-05-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: God does endorse slavery
(05-05-2015 12:26 PM)Bad Wolf Wrote:  They still wouldn't want to marry the men, and they still wouldn't want to have sex with them = rape.

How do you know this? Do we have diaries, documents written by these woman to know what they would have preferred? That they would rather have been left to fend for themselves, after their families were killed in war?

Is there anything written documents to indicate they were resistant to this, or how the Hebrews were to address their supposed resistance? How do you know this would not have been the option that they would have preferred? Do we have accounts of revenge enacted by these woman because of their families death, account of their refusal to be a part of Hebrew society? Accounts of how these woman weren’t to be trusted because their loyalties remained with their previous tribe?

Quote:Yea, and you know what we do when that does happen? We provide aid without trying to shag them. We help them with no prospect of a reward or trade.

You perhaps been drinking the kool aid for too long, we go to war primarily for reward and trade. And sometimes we leave a society without aid at all, view the victims left in the wake of our destruction as roaches, not even worthy of our concerns.

Quote:Or at the very least they could help rebuild it to a suitable state in which the women could survive.

Yea, that would have been a tenable solution for women in the ancient world, lol. Perhaps provided them some machine guns and howitzers while they were at it.

Quote:Anyway, how much damage to infrasturcture could these people have done?

Their main source of survival and protection were men. When a husband died, their brother's were obliged to marry their widows, to take care of them, and support them. It wasn’t a particularly prime period for female independence, but a period of needed dependency.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-05-2015, 12:58 PM
RE: God does endorse slavery
(05-05-2015 12:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 12:26 PM)Bad Wolf Wrote:  They still wouldn't want to marry the men, and they still wouldn't want to have sex with them = rape.

How do you know this? Do we have diaries, documents written by these woman to know what they would have preferred? That they would rather have been left to fend for themselves, after their families were killed in war?

Is there anything written documents to indicate they were resistant to this, or how the Hebrews were to address their supposed resistance? How do you know this would not have been the option that they would have preferred? Do we have accounts of revenge enacted by these woman because of their families death, account of their refusal to be a part of Hebrew society? Accounts of how these woman weren’t to be trusted because their loyalties remained with their previous tribe?

Quote:Yea, and you know what we do when that does happen? We provide aid without trying to shag them. We help them with no prospect of a reward or trade.

You perhaps been drinking the kool aid for too long, we go to war primarily for reward and trade. And sometimes we leave a society without aid at all, view the victims left in the wake of our destruction as roaches, not even worthy of our concerns.

Quote:Or at the very least they could help rebuild it to a suitable state in which the women could survive.

Yea, that would have been a tenable solution for women in the ancient world, lol. Perhaps provided them some machine guns and howitzers while they were at it.

Quote:Anyway, how much damage to infrasturcture could these people have done?

Their main source of survival and protection were men. When a husband died, their brother's were obliged to marry their widows, to take care of them, and support them. It wasn’t a particularly prime period for female independence, but a period of needed dependency.

So if we did this today--in modern times--took women as spoils of war--u would be okay with it since the Bible sanctioned it?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-05-2015, 01:15 PM
RE: God does endorse slavery
(05-05-2015 12:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  How do you know this?

I'm using logic and reason to make an inference about the preferences of these women. If someone murders someone you love, you do not like that person. In fact, you loath that person. Therefore, you do not want to have sex with that person. Therefore rape.

(05-05-2015 12:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Do we have diaries, documents written by these woman

Do you?

(05-05-2015 12:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  to know what they would have preferred? That they would rather have been left to fend for themselves, after their families were killed in war?

Again their choice is irrelevant. If they did not want to marry and have sex with the men, then they were raped.

(05-05-2015 12:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Is there anything written documents to indicate they were resistant to this,

Again, their choices were irrelevant.

(05-05-2015 12:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  or how the Hebrews were to address their supposed resistance? How do you know this would not have been the option that they would have preferred?

Preference is irrelevant. Just because they preferred having sex with a murderer instead of dying, doesn't mean they wanted to have sex with the murderer

(05-05-2015 12:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Do we have accounts of revenge enacted by these woman because of their families death, account of their refusal to be a part of Hebrew society? Accounts of how these woman weren’t to be trusted because their loyalties remained with their previous tribe?

And yet again, their choices and actions are irrelevant.


(05-05-2015 12:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You perhaps been drinking the kool aid for too long, we go to war primarily for reward and trade. And sometimes we leave a society without aid at all, view the victims left in the wake of our destruction as roaches, not even worthy of our concerns.

Really? Can you name one 'recent' war, when we've done that.

(05-05-2015 12:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yea, that would have been a tenable solution for women in the ancient world, lol. Perhaps provided them some machine guns and howitzers while they were at it.

Yes it would have been very tenable. You're presenting a false dichotomy. Either marry the men that killed everyone you knew, or die. Those are not the only two possible choices just because those were the two choices that occured.


(05-05-2015 12:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Their main source of survival and protection were men. When a husband died, their brother's were obliged to marry their widows, to take care of them, and support them. It wasn’t a particularly prime period for female independence, but a period of needed dependency.

Completely missing out the relevant part of my post.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-05-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: God does endorse slavery
(05-05-2015 12:58 PM)jennybee Wrote:  So if we did this today--in modern times--took women as spoils of war--u would be okay with it since the Bible sanctioned it?

No.

But if our modern world, dissolved and became the world of the old, perhaps. I can't say my modern sensibilities would have survived the dissolution.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-05-2015, 01:25 PM
RE: God does endorse slavery
(05-05-2015 01:24 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 12:58 PM)jennybee Wrote:  So if we did this today--in modern times--took women as spoils of war--u would be okay with it since the Bible sanctioned it?

No.

But why not ? The bible is the perfect word of the gawd.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-05-2015, 01:30 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 01:33 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: God does endorse slavery
(05-05-2015 01:25 PM)Leo Wrote:  The bible is the perfect word of the gawd.

Well, that comes as news to me.

I always though it was writings of a bunch of Hebrews, struggling with the very question of God, imperfect like all human writings, but perceptive of something more than all other human writings.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: