God doesn't understand iterative probability
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08-05-2015, 06:36 AM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2015 06:43 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(08-05-2015 06:31 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(08-05-2015 06:27 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  He is but said interpretation ends at eating the fruit and becoming capable to giving life. There is no punishment, only mortality which is consequence of tasting fruit. Also there is no sin in this interpretation, for god supposedly planned on Adam and Eve eating from the tree.

In Genesis 3 God appears very pissed off. He punishes *all* women by making them go through painful childbirth and tells them they are to submit to their husbands for eating the fruit. Death is punishment for sin. That seems like a pretty big punishment for eating a piece of fruit...

If I recall corectly creation myth have at least two authors, so god in one author take could be quite nice guy, who jus can not manage to made humans fertile and immortal at the same time, so he make tree with magic fruit, and plan on Adam and Eve eating from it. Other author take could be vengeful god condemning first pair to suffering for sin. Final result is merging of these two tales - kind god who wanted the best for his creation suddenly starting punishing them for something that he know they were to do.

So no, death isn't punishment but consequence of choice, at least in interpretation I talk about. However the point is moot one, for Bible is full of contradictions and no one can prove what some mythical god wanted to do.

Edit - As for the pain of labor. It obviously exists so god had no other choice than condemn woman's to feel it. This myth only make sense when we merge the myth and reality - humans die, so god must have done something for them to be that way, labor is painfull, so again god..., in these time wives were supposed to submiting to the husbands so god...

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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08-05-2015, 06:45 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(07-05-2015 01:42 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(07-05-2015 01:28 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I like RPGs (the games, although rocket launchers are cool, too), and one thing I've learned to pay attention to in them is iterative probability. In these games, each challenge you face has a non-zero chance of killing your character. Of course, even if this chance is pretty small, it means that the more challenges you face, the more likely it is your character dies. This is just a fundamental truth of statistics. You cannot get around that without reducing the chance to precisely zero. Otherwise, you have to hope it's low enough that you survive the campaign, hope you get lucky, or be blindly ignorant of how these things work.

Now, apply that to the Garden of Eden.

Genesis posits a physical place where Adam and Eve can hang around doing, presumably anything they want, so long as they don't eat from one tree. Now, I cannot fathom any reason why God needed to put that tree there in the first place. Some may say that God needed to test humanity (why?). Now, if that's the case, the only reason for a test is if there's a chance for failure. If humanity was supposed to stay in the garden, as time went on, the likelihood that someone would eat form that tree would approach near certainty. That's just how these things work.

What did God think was going to happen!?

I mean obviously, this is just one more point showing the absurdity of the myth, but how do apologists reconcile this? They blame free will for all of mankind's faults and refuse to make God culpable for making faulty humans. This situation was engineered by someone who wanted humans to fail or by someone who is woefully inept. That's it. There's no magical third option.

Well, if the whole thing with Adam and Eve isn't true--then the whole need for Jesus goes out the window--which is one of the main reasons why christians can't believe in evolution. Well, that and evolution basically calls God a liar.

lolno

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08-05-2015, 06:47 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
And Robbie, I don't get iterative probably as describe by you in regards to RPGs.

Could you try and rephrase and/or explain again?

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08-05-2015, 06:53 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(08-05-2015 06:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  And Robbie, I don't get iterative probably as describe by you in regards to RPGs.

Could you try and rephrase and/or explain again?

I'll explain it from a standpoint of D&D, since it's what I understand best.

In order to resolve conflict, dice are rolled to handle any "unknows". This applies to whether or not your sword swing hits or the spell was effective. Now, as you gain levels, spells become more powerful, and they flat-out kill on a failed saving throw. The way saves work (at least in 3E) is that no matter how good your modifiers are to the die roll, a natural 1 (on a twenty-sided-die) will auto-fail.

This means that every time someone casts a spell that could outright kill you, you have a 5% chance to fail. The more and more of those you roll, the more likely you are to fail one. And even baring save-or-die spells, you still have a non-zero chance to die from "normal" attacks, given enough of them (it's just you have more time to react and change tactics when things go south).

Basically, on a long enough time line, it becomes nearly certain that any given character will die.
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08-05-2015, 07:01 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
Okay, I think I understand the concept, but how does it coincide with God's ineptness in its regards?

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08-05-2015, 07:12 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(07-05-2015 01:28 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I like RPGs (the games, although rocket launchers are cool, too), and one thing I've learned to pay attention to in them is iterative probability. In these games, each challenge you face has a non-zero chance of killing your character. Of course, even if this chance is pretty small, it means that the more challenges you face, the more likely it is your character dies. This is just a fundamental truth of statistics. You cannot get around that without reducing the chance to precisely zero. Otherwise, you have to hope it's low enough that you survive the campaign, hope you get lucky, or be blindly ignorant of how these things work.

Now, apply that to the Garden of Eden.

Genesis posits a physical place where Adam and Eve can hang around doing, presumably anything they want, so long as they don't eat from one tree. Now, I cannot fathom any reason why God needed to put that tree there in the first place. Some may say that God needed to test humanity (why?). Now, if that's the case, the only reason for a test is if there's a chance for failure. If humanity was supposed to stay in the garden, as time went on, the likelihood that someone would eat form that tree would approach near certainty. That's just how these things work.

What did God think was going to happen!?

I mean obviously, this is just one more point showing the absurdity of the myth, but how do apologists reconcile this? They blame free will for all of mankind's faults and refuse to make God culpable for making faulty humans. This situation was engineered by someone who wanted humans to fail or by someone who is woefully inept. That's it. There's no magical third option.

This has always amused me. god is allegedly all knowing, so if one knows the past, present and future, and decides to plant the tree knowing the sequence of events that will occur, and that he will have to kill millions on the planet with a great mythical global flood in the future, and then sacrifice part of himself, to satisfy his own ego and demand for atonement for a sin that he knew would happen, thus has responsibility for.....and this makes.....sense? lol Rolleyes

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"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-05-2015, 07:14 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(08-05-2015 06:36 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-05-2015 06:31 AM)jennybee Wrote:  In Genesis 3 God appears very pissed off. He punishes *all* women by making them go through painful childbirth and tells them they are to submit to their husbands for eating the fruit. Death is punishment for sin. That seems like a pretty big punishment for eating a piece of fruit...

If I recall corectly creation myth have at least two authors, so god in one author take could be quite nice guy, who jus can not manage to made humans fertile and immortal at the same time, so he make tree with magic fruit, and plan on Adam and Eve eating from it. Other author take could be vengeful god condemning first pair to suffering for sin. Final result is merging of these two tales - kind god who wanted the best for his creation suddenly starting punishing them for something that he know they were to do.

So no, death isn't punishment but consequence of choice, at least in interpretation I talk about. However the point is moot one, for Bible is full of contradictions and no one can prove what some mythical god wanted to do.

Edit - As for the pain of labor. It obviously exists so god had no other choice than condemn woman's to feel it. This myth only make sense when we merge the myth and reality - humans die, so god must have done something for them to be that way, labor is painfull, so again god..., in these time wives were supposed to submiting to the husbands so god...

There are two different creation accounts---if you are looking at them as stories--however, most christians would say there is only one creation account. If you are taking Genesis from the christian point of view --God punishes sin with death and that is why they need Jesus--so they can be saved from sins and have everlasting life in heaven. If you are talking about a literary point of view--I agree with you, I think two or more authors had different perspectives re: God.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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08-05-2015, 07:17 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(07-05-2015 01:28 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  There's no magical third option.

3) Viciously malign and sadistic. Like a kid pulling wings off butterflies or torturing a cat.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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08-05-2015, 07:22 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(08-05-2015 07:14 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(08-05-2015 06:36 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  If I recall corectly creation myth have at least two authors, so god in one author take could be quite nice guy, who jus can not manage to made humans fertile and immortal at the same time, so he make tree with magic fruit, and plan on Adam and Eve eating from it. Other author take could be vengeful god condemning first pair to suffering for sin. Final result is merging of these two tales - kind god who wanted the best for his creation suddenly starting punishing them for something that he know they were to do.

So no, death isn't punishment but consequence of choice, at least in interpretation I talk about. However the point is moot one, for Bible is full of contradictions and no one can prove what some mythical god wanted to do.

Edit - As for the pain of labor. It obviously exists so god had no other choice than condemn woman's to feel it. This myth only make sense when we merge the myth and reality - humans die, so god must have done something for them to be that way, labor is painfull, so again god..., in these time wives were supposed to submiting to the husbands so god...

There are two different creation accounts---if you are looking at them as stories--however, most christians would say there is only one creation account. If you are taking Genesis from the christian point of view --God punishes sin with death and that is why they need Jesus--so they can be saved from sins and have everlasting life in heaven. If you are talking about a literary point of view--I agree with you, I think two or more authors had different perspectives re: God.

I think Christian version make no sense, as god said that punishment would be death not original sin. But this is to be expected when one try to merge two differents books.

I think only way for Bible to make sense is merging myth with reality, cause if one looks at Bible as some kind of divine word then it is full of nonsense. If one accept that god (who is plot mechanism himself) must have done something for plot reasons then Bible might be interesting read, which shows what those ho lived before us believed.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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08-05-2015, 07:25 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(08-05-2015 07:22 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-05-2015 07:14 AM)jennybee Wrote:  There are two different creation accounts---if you are looking at them as stories--however, most christians would say there is only one creation account. If you are taking Genesis from the christian point of view --God punishes sin with death and that is why they need Jesus--so they can be saved from sins and have everlasting life in heaven. If you are talking about a literary point of view--I agree with you, I think two or more authors had different perspectives re: God.

I think Christian version make no sense, as god said that punishment would be death not original sin. But this is to be expected when one try to merge two differents books.

I think only way for Bible to make sense is merging myth with reality, cause if one looks at Bible as some kind of divine word then it is full of nonsense. If one accept that god (who is plot mechanism himself) must have done something for plot reasons then Bible might be interesting read, which shows what those ho lived before us believed.

If you want to see how christians "try" and merge all of the passages filled with contradictions together look up Kent Hovind doing his thing on you tube (pre-prison of course).

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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