God doesn't understand iterative probability
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08-05-2015, 09:40 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(08-05-2015 08:49 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If Adam and Eve aren't meant to encounter the tree repeatedly during their immortal lives, then this wouldn't apply. It assumes they and the tree are in there on a permanent basis and that they will keep encountering the tree.

ding ding ding

light bulb

I get it now.

I wasn't taking into account repeated, unending visits to the tree.

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08-05-2015, 09:44 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(08-05-2015 06:21 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(08-05-2015 06:06 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  You're right, though I think this interpretation makes slightly more sense than standard one. Also god isn't jackass in it, he does not punish Adam and Eve, so believers might find it better than one about sin.

As for the importance of choice I think it made sense, though not necessarily from modern perspective, i.e. humans are mortal so something made them this way, or they done something to cause it. And this is part when on introduce tree/rock/whatever. Myth is explaining mortality.

God kicks them out of the garden, makes women have excruciating pain during childbirth and sanctions their husbands to rule over them, curses the ground, and makes people die as a result of sin. He does punish them and is kind of a jackass.

See, this is one of the big "what the fuck" points of the Bible to me.

The women get it so much worse than the men.

I mean, every curse that the men got -- expulsion from Eden, having to till ground and deal with thorns if they wanted food -- the women got too, right? Farming isn't magically easier for women, is it? And then they got childbirth and subordination on top of that.

Okay, fine, so it was Eve that screwed up worse than Adam, therefore she was punished worse, MAYBE I can buy that.

And then the descendents get stuck with the same curse somehow.

Okay, MAYBE I can buy that too. ... okay, I can't, that bugs me, but it's not the HUGE "what the fuck" moment.

The huge "what the fuck" moment is when all women inherit Eve's curse (and Adam's), but men only get Adam's curse.

I mean, if we're going to have the curse carry on through the descendents, shouldn't the men ALSO be getting Eve's curse? Because they're, you know, descended from her?

And if not, why are the women descendents getting both sets of curses? If men are exempted from Eve's curse even though they're descended from her, then why shouldn't the women descended from her also be exempted?

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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08-05-2015, 09:52 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(08-05-2015 09:44 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(08-05-2015 06:21 AM)jennybee Wrote:  God kicks them out of the garden, makes women have excruciating pain during childbirth and sanctions their husbands to rule over them, curses the ground, and makes people die as a result of sin. He does punish them and is kind of a jackass.

See, this is one of the big "what the fuck" points of the Bible to me.

The women get it so much worse than the men.

I mean, every curse that the men got -- expulsion from Eden, having to till ground and deal with thorns if they wanted food -- the women got too, right? Farming isn't magically easier for women, is it? And then they got childbirth and subordination on top of that.

Okay, fine, so it was Eve that screwed up worse than Adam, therefore she was punished worse, MAYBE I can buy that.

And then the descendents get stuck with the same curse somehow.

Okay, MAYBE I can buy that too. ... okay, I can't, that bugs me, but it's not the HUGE "what the fuck" moment.

The huge "what the fuck" moment is when all women inherit Eve's curse (and Adam's), but men only get Adam's curse.

I mean, if we're going to have the curse carry on through the descendents, shouldn't the men ALSO be getting Eve's curse? Because they're, you know, descended from her?

And if not, why are the women descendents getting both sets of curses? If men are exempted from Eve's curse even though they're descended from her, then why shouldn't the women descended from her also be exempted?

You would think. But women were less than men in biblical times and they needed a way to explain why that was so. Also, some people say Adam was the one at fault and not Eve. So that really throws a wrench into things. But God is mysterious...and so are his ways. Who knows, maybe it'll be like an episode of Scooby Doo, where they rip off Adam's head and it was just old man Withers the whole time. Big Grin
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08-05-2015, 09:56 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(08-05-2015 09:44 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(08-05-2015 06:21 AM)jennybee Wrote:  God kicks them out of the garden, makes women have excruciating pain during childbirth and sanctions their husbands to rule over them, curses the ground, and makes people die as a result of sin. He does punish them and is kind of a jackass.

See, this is one of the big "what the fuck" points of the Bible to me.

The women get it so much worse than the men.

I mean, every curse that the men got -- expulsion from Eden, having to till ground and deal with thorns if they wanted food -- the women got too, right? Farming isn't magically easier for women, is it? And then they got childbirth and subordination on top of that.

Okay, fine, so it was Eve that screwed up worse than Adam, therefore she was punished worse, MAYBE I can buy that.

And then the descendents get stuck with the same curse somehow.

Okay, MAYBE I can buy that too. ... okay, I can't, that bugs me, but it's not the HUGE "what the fuck" moment.

The huge "what the fuck" moment is when all women inherit Eve's curse (and Adam's), but men only get Adam's curse.

I mean, if we're going to have the curse carry on through the descendents, shouldn't the men ALSO be getting Eve's curse? Because they're, you know, descended from her?

And if not, why are the women descendents getting both sets of curses? If men are exempted from Eve's curse even though they're descended from her, then why shouldn't the women descended from her also be exempted?

But how men could get labor pains? Or you mean something else.

And for me it isn't wtf moment, rather primitive attempt at explaining causes of human condition. If one thinks that Bible is about merging myth with reality then fruit and punishent kinda makes sense - humans are mortal, and myth explain why, labor is painful, myths explain why, in these time wives were expected to submit to husbands, myth provide rationale as to why should they do it.

But if one looks on Bible as word of god then it is nonsensical, and shows god as cruel and irrational despot, punishing entire generations for supposed sin.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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08-05-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(08-05-2015 09:56 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-05-2015 09:44 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  See, this is one of the big "what the fuck" points of the Bible to me.

The women get it so much worse than the men.

I mean, every curse that the men got -- expulsion from Eden, having to till ground and deal with thorns if they wanted food -- the women got too, right? Farming isn't magically easier for women, is it? And then they got childbirth and subordination on top of that.

Okay, fine, so it was Eve that screwed up worse than Adam, therefore she was punished worse, MAYBE I can buy that.

And then the descendents get stuck with the same curse somehow.

Okay, MAYBE I can buy that too. ... okay, I can't, that bugs me, but it's not the HUGE "what the fuck" moment.

The huge "what the fuck" moment is when all women inherit Eve's curse (and Adam's), but men only get Adam's curse.

I mean, if we're going to have the curse carry on through the descendents, shouldn't the men ALSO be getting Eve's curse? Because they're, you know, descended from her?

And if not, why are the women descendents getting both sets of curses? If men are exempted from Eve's curse even though they're descended from her, then why shouldn't the women descended from her also be exempted?

But how men could get labor pains? Or you mean something else.

And for me it isn't wtf moment, rather primitive attempt at explaining causes of human condition. If one thinks that Bible is about merging myth with reality then fruit and punishent kinda makes sense - humans are mortal, and myth explain why, labor is painful, myths explain why, in these time wives were expected to submit to husbands, myth provide rationale as to why should they do it.

But if one looks on Bible as word of god then it is nonsensical, and shows god as cruel and irrational despot, punishing entire generations for supposed sin.

Oh, sure. When you interpret Genesis as mythology invented by people to explain the world around them, it makes sense. (Granted, the inconsistencies make it a BAD explanation, but.) I was talking about how it reads when viewed from an "unvarnished truth" perspective.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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08-05-2015, 01:18 PM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(08-05-2015 12:47 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(08-05-2015 09:56 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  But how men could get labor pains? Or you mean something else.

And for me it isn't wtf moment, rather primitive attempt at explaining causes of human condition. If one thinks that Bible is about merging myth with reality then fruit and punishent kinda makes sense - humans are mortal, and myth explain why, labor is painful, myths explain why, in these time wives were expected to submit to husbands, myth provide rationale as to why should they do it.

But if one looks on Bible as word of god then it is nonsensical, and shows god as cruel and irrational despot, punishing entire generations for supposed sin.

Oh, sure. When you interpret Genesis as mythology invented by people to explain the world around them, it makes sense. (Granted, the inconsistencies make it a BAD explanation, but.) I was talking about how it reads when viewed from an "unvarnished truth" perspective.

From such perepective Bible is indeed full of wtf moments. Or maybe for hardcore believers nothing is wrong with this book and talking about inconsistiences is blasphemy.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-05-2015, 02:57 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
Remaining in realm of fantasy, it simply makes god a kid with a magnifying glass.
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09-05-2015, 03:06 AM
RE: God doesn't understand iterative probability
(07-05-2015 01:43 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  What if it wasn't a test of Eve, but rather the snake? Or an experiment to see which silly animal would jump up and volunteer to be the Adversary? Evil_monster

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