God-guided evolution......
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26-02-2017, 09:41 AM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(25-02-2017 10:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
jason197754 Wrote:How would you respond to someone who believes both in God and in evolution???


I'd say he did a piss poor job.
Elephants have evolved a system 50 times better than humans to fight cancer.
http://www.livescience.com/52432-elephan...tance.html
What ? Jebus couldn't give that to those "made in his image".

Facepalm

You should check out the crocodilian immune system!

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2...tor-blood/

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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26-02-2017, 10:14 AM
RE: God-guided evolution......
What possible use are metaphors about reality written by a civilization with barely any scientific knowledge?

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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26-02-2017, 10:19 AM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(26-02-2017 09:41 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(25-02-2017 10:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I'd say he did a piss poor job.
Elephants have evolved a system 50 times better than humans to fight cancer.
http://www.livescience.com/52432-elephan...tance.html
What ? Jebus couldn't give that to those "made in his image".

Facepalm

You should check out the crocodilian immune system!

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2...tor-blood/

That is cool!

So what we have here is evidence that god is a crocodile, the Egyptians were right all along, Sobek is the one true god.

[Image: sobek_by_marcelodisco-d8cm0ri.jpg]

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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26-02-2017, 10:57 AM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(26-02-2017 10:14 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  What possible use are metaphors about reality written by a civilization with barely any scientific knowledge?

I think theists will say that metaphors teach us about non-tangible truths, like Love, Goodness, and Sacrifice, and primitive civilizations can know as much about these things as a scientific one. (Some theists argue that they knew better.) This way of thinking sustained my faith for a long time. But it meant I had to revise most of the sermons I listened to before I could stomach them. That's exhausting work, and I got tired of it.

I've heard a priest say that he thinks the parable of the Prodigal Son is Jesus's commentary on Genesis. This priest believes in theistic evolution. Like the parable, Genesis is a story about man saying to God "I don't want you, I just want your stuff." It's not as much about disobeying some arbitrary rule, but about breaking relationship with God.

I like the parable of the Prodigal Son because I think it describes forgiveness in a really beautiful way. It makes total sense on a human level, though. There's no need to bring in a supreme being as the father figure.
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26-02-2017, 11:17 AM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(26-02-2017 09:05 AM)Alla Wrote:  
port_of_call Wrote:There's another issue with theistic evolution and Christian theology. In Christianity, death is the consequence of mankind's sin. In the theory of evolution, death is the mechanism of creation. So which is it?
It can be both. Depends on this: did God talk about spiritual death or physical death? God said Adam would die the same day. Does word "day" = 24 hours? Did Adam die within 24 hours?
So, I can believe in God, in Genesis creation story and in evolution. But there are gaps in creation story meaning there are gaps in the book of Genesis, and there are gaps in evolution theory.

port_of_call Wrote:Did man somehow reject God in order to be created in the first place?
It could be. I believe it is very, very possible. Adam could exist long before his physical body was created and he could choose to obey or to disobey God.

If you think it's very possible that Adam existed long before his physical body, then I guess that's true about all of us, right? I'm trying to follow your storyline and not end up with the doctrine of Original Sin. (That we are all born with the stain of someone else's choice and must pay the consequences.)

If we were all there existing in some spiritual form before we were born, and chose to reject any relationship with God, then it doesn't seem necessary for there to be an Adam and Eve. We are all Man and Woman, Adam and Eve.

That's pretty much how I used to think about creation when I was a Christian. I thought that if I was Adam (or Eve... or both) then I was in the Garden every day either inviting a relationship with God or rejecting God by saying "I don't want you, I just want your stuff." I'm someone who carries a strong sense of wonder and I live in a beautiful place close to nature. So I had lots of opportunities to worry about whether I was "hoarding" the stuff of creation for myself and rejecting a relationship with the one who made it.

The church told me the way to a relationship with God was through prayer, fasting, and sacraments. These things are actually okay at cultivating relationships with other humans, so I found a way to not worry too much as long as I kept participating. But I always had trouble with prayer. There were just too many other interesting things to do. I'm glad I'm able to enjoy my sense of wonder, now, without feeling responsible for an imaginary failed relationship.
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26-02-2017, 11:41 AM
RE: God-guided evolution......
How can you tell the difference between God-guided evolution and chance-driven evolution? Why hypothesize a God if you can't?
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26-02-2017, 12:34 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(26-02-2017 09:05 AM)Alla Wrote:  It can be both. Depends on this: did God talk about spiritual death or physical death? God said Adam would die the same day. Does word "day" = 24 hours? Did Adam die within 24 hours?

God said (to himself) the reason Adam was not to eat the apple was that Adam would become immortal, "like us". He said NOTHING like you claim.

Quote:But there are gaps in creation story meaning there are gaps in the book of Genesis, and there are gaps in evolution theory.

There are no gaps in Evolution. You don't know anything about it.

Quote:It could be. I believe it is very, very possible. Adam could exist long before his physical body was created and he could choose to obey or to disobey God.

You could buy into anything ... I mean after all, you bought the crap of Mormonism. Anyone who can be bamboozled into that could believe literally anything.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-02-2017, 01:30 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
mordant Wrote:How do you decide what's to be taken literally vs metaphorically?
You don't because you can't unless it is revealed by God (if we assume that He is real).

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26-02-2017, 01:43 PM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2017 01:49 PM by Alla.)
RE: God-guided evolution......
port_of_call Wrote:If you think it's very possible that Adam existed long before his physical body, then I guess that's true about all of us, right?
Right.

port_of_call Wrote:I'm trying to follow your storyline and not end up with the doctrine of Original Sin. (That we are all born with the stain of someone else's choice and must pay the consequences.)
There is no doctrine of original sin in the Bible. If I am wrong, please, show me. There is no doctrine in the Bible that "we are all born with the stain of someone else's choice and must pay the consequences" If I am wrong, please, show me.
port_of_call Wrote:If we were all there existing in some spiritual form before we were born, and chose to reject any relationship with God, then it doesn't seem necessary for there to be an Adam and Eve. We are all Man and Woman, Adam and Eve.
why? please, explain.
port_of_call Wrote:That's pretty much how I used to think about creation when I was a Christian. I thought that if I was Adam (or Eve... or both) then I was in the Garden every day either inviting a relationship with God or rejecting God by saying "I don't want you, I just want your stuff." I'm someone who carries a strong sense of wonder and I live in a beautiful place close to nature. So I had lots of opportunities to worry about whether I was "hoarding" the stuff of creation for myself and rejecting a relationship with the one who made it.
OK. Why did you think that? Any particular reason?
port_of_call Wrote:The church told me the way to a relationship with God was through prayer, fasting, and sacraments. These things are actually okay at cultivating relationships with other humans, so I found a way to not worry too much as long as I kept participating.
why would you need prayer, fasting and sacrament in cultivating relationship with humans? why do you say it is ok?
port_of_call Wrote:I always had trouble with prayer. There were just too many other interesting things to do
So, you didn't care about personal relationship with God. Correct?

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26-02-2017, 01:47 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(26-02-2017 11:41 AM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  How can you tell the difference between God-guided evolution and chance-driven evolution? Why hypothesize a God if you can't?

I am not sure that God guides the evolution. I believe that God creates conditions for the evolution and then He sings this cute little song : "let it be, let it be.." Big Grin
Later God looks how things work and says: "it is good"

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