God-guided evolution......
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27-02-2017, 06:17 PM (This post was last modified: 27-02-2017 06:59 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: God-guided evolution......
(26-02-2017 11:48 PM)MysticPhD Wrote:  Panentheist.

Look ma, it's a panentheist. Don't run into one of those every day. May the Baruch be with you. Big Grin

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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27-02-2017, 06:47 PM (This post was last modified: 27-02-2017 07:13 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: God-guided evolution......
(27-02-2017 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Alla is not worth your time.

She claims to be nominally Mormon, but she's about as well informed about her own Mormonism as your average cafeteria Catholic.

I'm not particularly interested in an academic treatment of Mormonism like the excellent work GoodWithoutGod has done here. Nor am I particularly interested in bickering over the literalism of any particular creation myth. It is a trivial exercise to map the elements of the Genesis account to scientifically coherent cosmological, geological, and evolutionary events once you admit it as myth and metaphor. That's true of almost all of the creation myths I'm familiar with.

What I am curious about is the psychology and thoughts of the average believer, how they interpret their religion and integrate it into their daily lives and world view. I think Alla's been quite gracious in this regard.

(27-02-2017 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Whether or not you find her worth engaging I leave up to you, but on the whole, I find here worthy of little more than well deserved derision.

I think there's a couple of things going on here. One is that her English was far less comprehensible when she first came here and you had to work to gist it. That understandably made many think she was a troll or a poe. Second, her political views can be rather, shall we say, vigorous which turns a lot of people off (me included). She's in Idaho by way of Ukraine, her politics are bound to be a little ... different.

Her English has improved greatly, her thoughts are much easier to grasp, I hope it's clear by now she's neither troll nor poe, her religious and metaphysical views are both fantastic (literally) and fascinating, and although her political views are still vigorous bordering on extreme, she has shown a willingness to entertain and consider alternative positions. I think she is genuine in her beliefs and I don't smell an air of arrogance, condescension, pretension or pretense. I like her. Seems like good people to Girly. Thumbsup

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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27-02-2017, 07:06 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(27-02-2017 05:15 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Easy, guys. I've seen Alla in her nastier moments of the past, and I've seen her say some absurd things... but nothing on this thread so far has warranted the way you guys are treating her.

She has been pleasant and patient, and I think you are making us all look pretty bad by being abusive in your replies. There's no call for it. Point out errors in the interpretations all day, such as the "evening and morning were the first day" gives the literal "Yom = 24 hrs" version more credence, but there's no reason to use insulting or demeaning language.

I think Alla's new approach strikes me as worthy of more respect, and much more decency, than she has been getting in return. Even I find this thread painful to read, and I know everyone involved. If I was an outsider reading this thread, not knowing how heated exchanges with her have gotten (and some, I think, quite legitimately) in the past, Alla would look like a saint and we would look like every caricature of Angry Atheists™ portrayed by lying pastors.

Please, I implore all of you... be nicer. Seriously, I don't think she deserves what's going on here, and I think you're making all of us look bad by proxy. Love you guys, but chill out!

I'll give the poe little girl a break, but my bullshit meter has it's limits. I've seen the harm that people claiming to hear from god can cause, it's a nasty business, I'm not so sure this mindset deserves anything but derision.

I'll look at her as the poor little kid on the forum's short bus, that's all you're getting from me.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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27-02-2017, 07:09 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(27-02-2017 07:06 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I'll look at her as the poor little kid on the forum's short bus, that's all you're getting from me.

That'll work. Thumbsup

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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27-02-2017, 08:15 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(26-02-2017 11:48 PM)MysticPhD Wrote:  
(26-02-2017 05:48 PM)mordant Wrote:  Well I am confused. You say you can't interpret the Bible or determine when it's being literal and figurative and yet you read it and believe it has some value despite that you can't determine what it means.
Hi mordant. I assume there is no prohibition against bringing science into these kinds of discussions. Tell me, is the automatic assumption here that God must be the biblical one? Is Creationism the default assumption for God?
Well hi there Mystic. Glad to have you visit, and no, unlike C-D you can use scientific arguments. Although in fairness that is a new prohibition on their Religion & Spirituality forum, and this is much more the equivalent of their Atheism & Agnosticism forum, where you can still bring up, er, facts. So far.

I was speaking to Alla's contention that you can't interpret the Bible, or unambiguously determine when it's being literal or figurative, yet she reads and values it. So the assumption is the Biblical god in the context of this discussion, or at least the Mormon version thereof. To my knowledge Alla is not a creationist.

In this particular sub-forum we are talking generically about "Debates You've Had With Theists" so that's pretty broad, but like at C-D, it tends to end up being about Christianity and, often, fundamentalism, because those are the sorts of apologists we most often encounter here and in real life.
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27-02-2017, 08:19 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
Is a panentheist someone who thinks bread is god ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-02-2017, 08:27 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
I appreciate everyone who spoke in Alla's defense. As a woman, I will always feel personally threatened when I see the word c--t. If you want this to be a community for both men and women, please refrain from using that word.

Can we get back on topic, now?

Alla mentioned that she believes Adam and Eve rejected God long before they were born. Today, I remembered a conversation I had with a priest where he told me the Church does not teach that there were pre-existent souls. I found this comparison online, in case you're interested: http://www.religionresourcesonline.org/d...stence.php

It looks like Mormons do believe in pre-existent souls. Alla, if that's your background then maybe that's where you're coming from. Just know that your belief is different than the Christian experience I come from.
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27-02-2017, 08:43 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(27-02-2017 10:49 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Thumpalumpacus Wrote:So your god is not omnipotent, then. Got it.
This is not what I believe. God is omnipotent.
Omnipotence is the quality of having unlimited power.
God has unlimited power to create something that didn't exist before. But if something already exists God doesn't have to create.

Yet you compared your god to a gardener. A gardener cannot create by fiat. He must first make, and then till, the soil, seed it, water it, weed it, and harvest the crop.

A god of unlimited power would not have to do those things. A god of unlimited power could simply *poof* the fruit into his hand. Yet it is obvious, from evidence, that that is not the case here. Why should he choose to pare the human genome with virii and cancers and other maladies which cause pain and suffering if he could obviate all that with an act of perfect creation?

Keep tap-dancing, Alla. You've got a long bit of song-and-dance ahead of you.
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27-02-2017, 10:22 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(27-02-2017 08:27 PM)port_of_call Wrote:  As a woman, I will always feel personally threatened when I see the word c--t. If you want this to be a community for both men and women, please refrain from using that word.

You must be an American. (As am I.)

Typing on international forums, I've learned that most people from other countries don't consider the word nearly as foul, nor as degrading to women, as Americans do. In England and Australia, in particular, it's rattled off in the same way we say "jerk", "jackass", or "moron", with similar meaning.

I think you will find that people here are unusually supportive of feminism and concerned about safety and well-being of both men and women.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-02-2017, 10:25 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
Thanks, Rocket. I wondered if that was the case.
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