God-guided evolution......
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28-02-2017, 03:35 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
Robvalue Wrote:No, certainly not. I can't possibly make sure it doesn't come back. It hasn't even gone, I'm just coping better with it.
So, you are in hell. This is how I called depression/misery. I called it "hell"
There is nothing you can do to escape it once and for all. There is nothing you can do to save yourself once and for all, there is nothing you can do TO BE FREE from illness. You can have faith, hope, do good to others, you are still ending up in hell(misery)/depression.
But what if there is somebody who knows how to help you? For example, a doctor who has medication that cures depression for good. This doctor happened to be your brother. He loves you and this is why he wants to help you.
I will call this brother and doctor "savior". Your doctor brother says: "You don't have to do anything, you don't have to pay money for medicine and my service. You don't have to have faith in medication or me, you don't have to serve me, you don't have to love me. No conditions attached. I just give it to you because it will SAVE you. Even if you don't have faith and hope that it will work medication still will cure you. "

I assume that the reason why you ask me "saved from what?" is because you don't mind to understand doctrine of salvation. I don't assume you are planning to accept this doctrine.
Here is one part of Christ's doctrine of salvation:
No matter what you do in your life you will die. You will end up in hell/misery. Death = hell. You can not save yourself. Even if you have great desire to save yourself.
Christ who is your Brother and Healer is the One who knows how to save/to get you out of this hell. He wants to do this. He WILL do it. It is unconditional. You don't have to do anything to live again in physical body. You don't have to love Christ. You don't have to believe in Him. You don't have to worship Him or His Father and His God.

You didn't do anything wrong to be born in mortal, physical body. It is not your fault you will end up dead(in hell) one day. This is why you don't have to and you can't do anything to be saved from hell(physical death).
You can be an atheist or whatever you want to be, you can be good or you can be bad you still will be saved from hell, you will live again.
P.S. I am not asking you to believe this, I am just answering your question about Christ's doctrine of salvation.

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28-02-2017, 03:45 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(28-02-2017 03:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  You can be an atheist or whatever you want to be, you can be good or you can be bad you still will be saved from hell, you will live again.
P.S. I am not asking you to believe this, I am just answering your question about Christ's doctrine of salvation.

I don't know if it's LDS doctrine or not, but this is not the first time you have alluded to universal reconciliation. I don't understand why more Christians don't ascribe to this doctrine. Anything short of it trivializes the sacrifice.

#sigh
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28-02-2017, 04:13 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(28-02-2017 04:22 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  With no original sin, there is no need for Jesus.

That is exactly why so many fundamentalists fight evolutionary theory. They know it ruins the story. Evolution explains our more primitive impulses without resorting to an idea like the fall of man. Without the fall of man, there is indeed no need for the teachings and sacrifice of Jesus to redeem us. As you point out, the whole story falls apart -- not just Genesis but the Gospels no longer make sense. It's all mythology.

If you say God created us through evolution, you end up with other problems. God is then responsible for our "evil inclinations" -- not us -- since he created us that way.
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28-02-2017, 08:45 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(28-02-2017 04:13 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  
(28-02-2017 04:22 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  With no original sin, there is no need for Jesus.

That is exactly why so many fundamentalists fight evolutionary theory. They know it ruins the story. Evolution explains our more primitive impulses without resorting to an idea like the fall of man. Without the fall of man, there is indeed no need for the teachings and sacrifice of Jesus to redeem us. As you point out, the whole story falls apart -- not just Genesis but the Gospels no longer make sense. It's all mythology.

If you say God created us through evolution, you end up with other problems. God is then responsible for our "evil inclinations" -- not us -- since he created us that way.

But as I pointed out, pretty much every type of Christian other than the fundamentalists has no problem with evolution, and sees the "fall of man" as a metaphor for ceasing to live in the "garden of God" (the whole earth) as hunter-gatherers dependent upon the providence of the laws of Nature that God created, after which "fall" we were now forced to make the decisions of good-and-evil on our own, and live with the consequences thereof.

Since they see "Adam" as the proto-human(s) who first was/were intelligent enough to recognize and worship the Creator, they correspondingly see sin as giving in to our animal natures and refusing to follow the "written on our hearts" knowledge (to paraphrase Paul) of what God wants us to be in order to be Holy... to rise above our animal natures and become spiritual beings worthy of a place in heaven alongside the Creator.

Keep in mind, I'm an atheist. I don't agree with it; I just want to be sure the position of most Christians, rather than the fundamentalist loudmouth minority, is represented fairly by us.

What I can't figure out is how they justify the idea that animal sacrifice (and later, a proxy demi-human sacrifice) is somehow "pleasing to God" or necessary for the atonement of the times when we act in accordance with our animalistic (sinful) urges.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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28-02-2017, 11:25 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(28-02-2017 03:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Robvalue Wrote:No, certainly not. I can't possibly make sure it doesn't come back. It hasn't even gone, I'm just coping better with it.
So, you are in hell. This is how I called depression/misery. I called it "hell"
There is nothing you can do to escape it once and for all. There is nothing you can do to save yourself once and for all, there is nothing you can do TO BE FREE from illness. You can have faith, hope, do good to others, you are still ending up in hell(misery)/depression.
But what if there is somebody who knows how to help you? For example, a doctor who has medication that cures depression for good. This doctor happened to be your brother. He loves you and this is why he wants to help you.
I will call this brother and doctor "savior". Your doctor brother says: "You don't have to do anything, you don't have to pay money for medicine and my service. You don't have to have faith in medication or me, you don't have to serve me, you don't have to love me. No conditions attached. I just give it to you because it will SAVE you. Even if you don't have faith and hope that it will work medication still will cure you. "

I assume that the reason why you ask me "saved from what?" is because you don't mind to understand doctrine of salvation. I don't assume you are planning to accept this doctrine.
Here is one part of Christ's doctrine of salvation:
No matter what you do in your life you will die. You will end up in hell/misery. Death = hell. You can not save yourself. Even if you have great desire to save yourself.
Christ who is your Brother and Healer is the One who knows how to save/to get you out of this hell. He wants to do this. He WILL do it. It is unconditional. You don't have to do anything to live again in physical body. You don't have to love Christ. You don't have to believe in Him. You don't have to worship Him or His Father and His God.

You didn't do anything wrong to be born in mortal, physical body. It is not your fault you will end up dead(in hell) one day. This is why you don't have to and you can't do anything to be saved from hell(physical death).
You can be an atheist or whatever you want to be, you can be good or you can be bad you still will be saved from hell, you will live again.
P.S. I am not asking you to believe this, I am just answering your question about Christ's doctrine of salvation.

Okay, thanks for explaining Smile

It sounds like Jesus came to fix a broken system then. Why was it broken in the first place? Why weren't we created to just go wherever he's taking us?

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01-03-2017, 05:30 AM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2017 10:03 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: God-guided evolution......
(28-02-2017 08:45 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  But as I pointed out, pretty much every type of Christian other than the fundamentalists has no problem with evolution, and sees the "fall of man" as a metaphor for ceasing to live in the "garden of God" (the whole earth) as hunter-gatherers dependent upon the providence of the laws of Nature that God created, after which "fall" we were now forced to make the decisions of good-and-evil on our own, and live with the consequences thereof.

I have no doubt whatsoever that religious people can rationalize almost anything. Their priority is to uphold their social systems, not to work out the most elegant and economical explanations. That's why, until they change their priorities, they are very difficult to talk to.
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01-03-2017, 06:37 AM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(28-02-2017 08:45 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(28-02-2017 04:13 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  That is exactly why so many fundamentalists fight evolutionary theory. They know it ruins the story. Evolution explains our more primitive impulses without resorting to an idea like the fall of man. Without the fall of man, there is indeed no need for the teachings and sacrifice of Jesus to redeem us. As you point out, the whole story falls apart -- not just Genesis but the Gospels no longer make sense. It's all mythology.

If you say God created us through evolution, you end up with other problems. God is then responsible for our "evil inclinations" -- not us -- since he created us that way.

But as I pointed out, pretty much every type of Christian other than the fundamentalists has no problem with evolution, and sees the "fall of man" as a metaphor for ceasing to live in the "garden of God" (the whole earth) as hunter-gatherers dependent upon the providence of the laws of Nature that God created, after which "fall" we were now forced to make the decisions of good-and-evil on our own, and live with the consequences thereof.

Since they see "Adam" as the proto-human(s) who first was/were intelligent enough to recognize and worship the Creator, they correspondingly see sin as giving in to our animal natures and refusing to follow the "written on our hearts" knowledge (to paraphrase Paul) of what God wants us to be in order to be Holy... to rise above our animal natures and become spiritual beings worthy of a place in heaven alongside the Creator.

Keep in mind, I'm an atheist. I don't agree with it; I just want to be sure the position of most Christians, rather than the fundamentalist loudmouth minority, is represented fairly by us.

What I can't figure out is how they justify the idea that animal sacrifice (and later, a proxy demi-human sacrifice) is somehow "pleasing to God" or necessary for the atonement of the times when we act in accordance with our animalistic (sinful) urges.

This is a well worked out theological framework, it made me wonder if there was a body of academic/theological thought about this, a quick look on Amazon showed several books on this subject, I saw mention of Denis O Lamoureux and what seems to be a well-know article by him:

Beyond Original Sin: Is a Theological Paradigm Shift Inevitable?

The appearance of influential evangelicals rejecting
concordism and Adam indicates that these indi-
viduals have personally experienced a theological
paradigm shift. And the June 2011 Christianity Today
article reporting a debate within evangelicalism over
the historicity of Adam might be a signpost of the
start of a theological crisis.


So they're struggling with how to deal with it, and we get to argue with the creationist chucklefucks who get on this forum with their hair on fire who think they have it all figured out. Facepalm

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01-03-2017, 10:19 AM
RE: God-guided evolution......
GirlyMan Wrote:I don't know if it's LDS doctrine or not,
Not exactly LDS Doctrine. But the idea is the same. GirlyMan, I hope you understood what I was trying to say.

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01-03-2017, 10:24 AM
RE: God-guided evolution......
Robvalue Wrote:It sounds like Jesus came to fix a broken system then. Why was it broken in the first place? Why weren't we created to just go wherever he's taking us?

We were created in that place were system is not broken, we were with Him. We chose to come here for specific reasons. But I know already that you care less about religions that is why I will tell you what those reasons are only if you are curious to know.

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01-03-2017, 11:46 AM
RE: God-guided evolution......
Why am I being punished for what my ancestors supposedly did? Why do I have to endure this shithole, instead of being born where I was meant to be?

Can I just kill myself and go straight there?

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