God-guided evolution......
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
29-11-2016, 03:03 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(29-11-2016 02:44 PM)jennybee Wrote:  "The Torah is a book of truth, not a history book. "
In my understanding that sounds like history and truth are mutually exclusive.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-11-2016, 03:05 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(29-11-2016 02:55 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 02:44 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I spoke with a rabbi on aish.com. He was so nice. Anyway, he pointed me to this article and here is an excerpt:

"The Torah is a book of truth, not a history book. Only ideas spiritually relevant to us are recorded. Our world begins with Adam; whether Adam had physical precursors in worlds destroyed is not really the issue. Our story begins with Adam, with the capacity of man to relate to and emulate God. This is our legacy. However, the Talmud traces the effects of these earlier generations: The Holy One, blessed be He, arose and planted them in every generation, and it is they who are the insolent of each generation. The question we are left to ponder is whether they existed in fact or in thought alone."

I was taught that the 974 generations existed prior to Adam in a literal sense, and that they "didn't exist" in that they were not a part of our world. We know for a fact in this day and age that many generations did exist prior to 6,000 years ago. But I agree with the Rabbi in that it doesn't really matter if they existed or not. What you believe on the subject doesn't change what was.

Adam is the start of the Jewish legacy is my understanding. So Adam is the first man as it relates to Jewish spirituality (not the first man on the planet as Christians would read it to be).
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes jennybee's post
29-11-2016, 03:07 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(29-11-2016 03:05 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 02:55 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I was taught that the 974 generations existed prior to Adam in a literal sense, and that they "didn't exist" in that they were not a part of our world. We know for a fact in this day and age that many generations did exist prior to 6,000 years ago. But I agree with the Rabbi in that it doesn't really matter if they existed or not. What you believe on the subject doesn't change what was.

Adam is the start of the Jewish legacy is my understanding. So Adam is the first man as it relates to Jewish spirituality (not the first man on the planet as Christians would read it to be).

That is how I understand it. All of creation is outside of the 6,000 years of the Jewish calendar. Our calendar starts with Adam and the time before that could be billions of years. It doesn't matter because it doesn't pertain to Jewish life.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Aliza's post
29-11-2016, 03:07 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(29-11-2016 03:03 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 02:44 PM)jennybee Wrote:  "The Torah is a book of truth, not a history book. "
In my understanding that sounds like history and truth are mutually exclusive.

Truth in the sense of spirituality. All religions have their tenets or truths.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes jennybee's post
29-11-2016, 03:24 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(29-11-2016 03:03 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 02:44 PM)jennybee Wrote:  "The Torah is a book of truth, not a history book. "
In my understanding that sounds like history and truth are mutually exclusive.
For me it is nonsensical and arrogant statement - our book is not mere history but The Truth.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-11-2016, 03:36 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(29-11-2016 01:52 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 12:26 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Here is how I understand this statement. The Big Bang happens. God records it using metaphors.
Here is what I don't understand:
Whether you consider the Big Bang part of evolution. Whether you consider it the first event. Whether it was the one thing directly caused by God.
Do you consider it as part of evolution, theistic or otherwise?
Do you believe it is the first event?
Do you believe it was directly caused by God?
I am used to evolution being discussed only in the context of living things. What are you talking about when you talk about evolution, theistic or otherwise?
My understanding.
1. God creates the world with the ingredients for life.
2. That they have free will.
3. That the resultant life forms make choices that result in the exact evolutionary(non-theistic) outcomes that have been observed by scientists.
4. That (1) and (3) cannot be separated and free will (2) is the glue.
That theistic evolution is the same thing as Darwinian evolution - they are one thing. And it would NOT happen if God withholds this free will.
What I don't understand.
What is free will? Do the ingredients of life have it? Does anything have free will on earth about 4 billion years ago? Does a rock hurtling through space have free will?

At this point in time, everyone is a middle man. A 2,000 year old myth is going to have many versions directly proportional to the number of people who hear about it. Two people can even watch the same event on video and still have striking differences of opinion about what happened. I don't find this argument to be convincing at all.

Tomilay, I am absolutely not trying to convince you of anything at all. You asked me some follow-up questions, and I answered them, but I answered them to inform you about my position and not to persuade you.

But your answers led to even less clarity(less information) - buttressing the point you are questioning. The point that creationists' views are easier to understand than those of theistic evolution believers. If you are trying to NOT increase clarity, you are doing just fine. My questions are just requests for clarifications. At least let me know what you are not trying to persuade me about.

The theistic evolution adherents do not state their position with similar clarity. For example, I still don't know what you generally consider evolution to be. That can simplify a lot of things for me. This has nothing to do with merits or lack thereof for your views. There is much obscurity and no effort to remove it.

It's partly the nature of portmanteau beliefs. But also, especially in your case, a result of loosely held "beliefs" that will be reimagined to fit new data to tautologically arrive at the same point with the scientific observations.

(29-11-2016 01:52 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I did call to question your belief that I lack integrity, mostly because I don’t think you know enough about my religious views to make a blanket statement like that about not only my people, but every religious person of any religion who appreciates scientific discovery and their cultural and religious traditions.

I questioned the integrity of the theistic evolutionary viewpoint. Not the personal integrity of the believers. Do you understand that distinction? One challenges the integrity of an argument, the other challenges the integrity of the proponent of the argument. I am the former.

(29-11-2016 01:52 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 12:26 PM)tomilay Wrote:  It seems to me that they are flexible to re-purposing the story for different contingencies. It seems redundant, at best, to re-imagine a myth to fit in with the new evidence. Why not just discard the myth altogether?

They read the same to me. I like my Torah, Talmud, and associated texts, and that is why I choose not to discard them. What I see is the Jewish story of creation that involves a defined beginning and a universe that expands from the size of a mustard seed, is currently 15 billion years old, and that it will eventually have an ending. The Jewish model has humanity living on Earth way before Adam (974 generations before), and that Earth was filled with animals and plants way before that.

I wasn't aware of this. If it talks about evolution, even in metaphorical terms, a case could be made for some similarities.

(29-11-2016 01:52 PM)Aliza Wrote:  We Jews have watched while gentiles have argued since Aristotle that the universe is static, to the modern era with scientists gathering data and coming around to something that, to our way of thinking, strongly resembles the Jewish view.

But you said, below, that the Jewish view resembles something you cannot put a finger on. How can anyone test the above statement?

The Jewish position has never taken a staunch, hard stance on this, or that it has to be strictly literal. Our 2,000 year old Talmud records the history and traditions of the Jewish people, and it builds the framework on how to handle new scientific discovery with previously understood religious doctrine. We have no problem bending and re imagining things because Judaism is not about holding a singular message that has to apply to all people of all times. Judaism is about having a living, breathing doctrine that grows with the people so it remains relevant in different times and in different situations

(29-11-2016 01:52 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The primary reason why I do not discard my religious teachings is because those who would wish me to do so have failed to address or even consider the Jewish position. I’m not about to discard something that makes me happy and makes sense to me when I’ve never been given a good reason to do so.

Mine was a rhetorical question/suggestion.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-11-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(28-11-2016 10:07 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  How would you respond to someone who believes both in God and in evolution???

Show me the proof.

That's how I respond.

Shuts them up all the time. I can then get on with my day. Smile

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Banjo's post
29-11-2016, 03:48 PM (This post was last modified: 29-11-2016 03:53 PM by jennybee.)
RE: God-guided evolution......
(29-11-2016 03:24 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 03:03 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  In my understanding that sounds like history and truth are mutually exclusive.
For me it is nonsensical and arrogant statement - our book is not mere history but The Truth.

They mean truth as a spiritual term. If you read the whole statement, it is not arrogant or nonsensical at all. They are not saying it is THE Truth, they are saying it is A Truth (as in legacy/spirituality of the Jewish people) relevant *to them.*

"Only ideas spiritually relevant to us are recorded. Our world begins with Adam; whether Adam had physical precursors in worlds destroyed is not really the issue. Our story begins with Adam, with the capacity of man to relate to and emulate God. This is our legacy. However, the Talmud traces the effects of these earlier generations: The Holy One, blessed be He, arose and planted them in every generation, and it is they who are the insolent of each generation. The question we are left to ponder is whether they existed in fact or in thought alone."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like jennybee's post
29-11-2016, 04:02 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
(29-11-2016 03:48 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 03:24 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  For me it is nonsensical and arrogant statement - our book is not mere history but The Truth.

They mean truth as a spiritual term. If you read the whole statement, it is not arrogant or nonsensical at all. They are not saying it is THE Truth, they are saying it is A Truth (as in legacy/spirituality of the Jewish people) relevant *to them.*

"Only ideas spiritually relevant to us are recorded. Our world begins with Adam; whether Adam had physical precursors in worlds destroyed is not really the issue. Our story begins with Adam, with the capacity of man to relate to and emulate God. This is our legacy. However, the Talmud traces the effects of these earlier generations: The Holy One, blessed be He, arose and planted them in every generation, and it is they who are the insolent of each generation. The question we are left to ponder is whether they existed in fact or in thought alone."

Well said. Jews only believe that we have the truth for us. We do not believe that everyone should be Jewish and that stands as evidence that we believe that our truth is not universal to everyone.

I think that people exposed to Christian thinking are predisposed to think that we're including them in our narrative because Christianity presents itself as being the singular way for all people. Judaism is only for Jews.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
29-11-2016, 04:10 PM
RE: God-guided evolution......
@Jennybee

I still don't like sound of this. Saying that it is about truth as spiritual term is just woo for me. It's even worse than I previously thought - we have special truth just for us.

But in the end I care not about what Jews believe as long as it does not have impact on my life.

Wysłane z mojego 6045K przy użyciu Tapatalka

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Szuchow's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: