God is "beyond" science!
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01-01-2013, 11:57 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science!
The idea of god is a delusion and as such it is not beyond science. Delusions are not real, not material.
They exist in the mind of the believer and no where else.
You speak and have conversations with god because god is in your head. You are talking to yourself not some outside entity.
This is why everyone has their own notions about what god is and what he or she can do and why he or she doesn't do things like help people in need of real help, like that woman about to be raped or the guy with a gun to his head or millions who are dying from hunger.

Your imaginary figment in your mind can't help anyone and when someone is helped by a real live human being, you attribute that to your delusional god working in mysterious ways.

This notion of god is a mental disorder that people the world over clutch to with such child like fear.
It's their security blanket that I want to rip away and say "grow the fuck up and stop acting like a child"

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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01-01-2013, 07:01 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science!
Hey, Rahn.

Psychology is actually a science. You can't just co-opt it for whatever purpose you want. Mental disorders are very serious, very specific things. They are not vehicles for your disdain to use in whatever arbitrary manner you choose. If you love science, then love it and stop making a mockery of psychology.

Hey, Chas.

I don't personally care what people's particular beliefs are about the characteristics of God.

And circumstantial evidence is never compelling.

You keep saying undetectable like it's a synonym for non-empirical. No one in this thread has made such a claim and those religious people that believe in God quite clearly believe that revelation occurred.

If God observes all of the natural laws of the universe, then he's not a God. He's a naturally occurring phenomenon. There's nothing God-like about starting a fire with gasoline. There is something God-like about starting it with no accelerant and no release of energy so that you could hold it in your hand.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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01-01-2013, 07:12 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science!
(01-01-2013 07:01 PM)Ghost Wrote:  I don't personally care what people's particular beliefs are about the characteristics of God.

And circumstantial evidence is never compelling.

Enough of it is.

Quote:You keep saying undetectable like it's a synonym for non-empirical. No one in this thread has made such a claim and those religious people that believe in God quite clearly believe that revelation occurred.

If God observes all of the natural laws of the universe, then he's not a God. He's a naturally occurring phenomenon.

Only because you are defining it that way.

Quote:There's nothing God-like about starting a fire with gasoline. There is something God-like about starting it with no accelerant and no release of energy so that you could hold it in your hand.

If God can make a fire that one can hold in one's hand, that is evidence. It is detectable. It is part of the natural world.

You are defining a dichotomy between God and nature.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-01-2013, 07:20 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science!
(01-01-2013 07:01 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Rahn.

Psychology is actually a science. You can't just co-opt it for whatever purpose you want. Mental disorders are very serious, very specific things. They are not vehicles for your disdain to use in whatever arbitrary manner you choose. If you love science, then love it and stop making a mockery of psychology.
This, X 1000. Absolutely couldn't agree with you more Ghost Thumbsup , though I could be a touch biased as it is my field of study but still...it is not woo, it is not philosophy, it IS science.
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01-01-2013, 07:29 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science!
OK, Chas.

I've asked you several times to explain what you mean by "defining it that way" and since you won't and since it's your sole argument, if you don't clarify it for me, then I don't see a reason to continue this.

How do you plan to explain that fire? The one that does not, nor never will correspond to a natural law. Like I said, you're conflating experiencing a phenomenon with having empirical evidence of a phenomenon.

Anyhoo, I have to admit that I'm getting bored with this thread. I've made a number of reasoned arguments and people are ignoring them and focusing on BS and prepared rebittals that don't even aply and putting words in my mouth. It's pretty tedious.

ON EDIT: Word up, Bio Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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01-01-2013, 07:39 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science!
(01-01-2013 07:29 PM)Ghost Wrote:  OK, Chas.

I've asked you several times to explain what you mean by "defining it that way" and since you won't and since it's your sole argument, if you don't clarify it for me, then I don't see a reason to continue this.

How do you plan to explain that fire? The one that does not, nor never will correspond to a natural law. Like I said, you're conflating experiencing a phenomenon with having empirical evidence of a phenomenon.

Anyhoo, I have to admit that I'm getting bored with this thread. I've made a number of reasoned arguments and people are ignoring them and focusing on BS and prepared rebittals that don't even aply and putting words in my mouth. It's pretty tedious.

ON EDIT: Word up, Bio Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt


It is because your sole argument is your definition of God that puts him beyond science.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-01-2013, 09:34 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science!


(01-01-2013 07:20 PM)BioPsychMS Wrote:  


(01-01-2013 07:01 PM)Ghost Wrote:  
Hey, Rahn.

Psychology is actually a science. You can't just co-opt it for whatever purpose you want. Mental disorders are very serious, very specific things. They are not vehicles for your disdain to use in whatever arbitrary manner you choose. If you love science, then love it and stop making a mockery of psychology.



This, X 1000. Absolutely couldn't agree with you more Ghost Thumbsup , though I could be a touch biased as it is my field of study but still...it is not woo, it is not philosophy, it IS science.



In what way was I making a mockery of psychology by accurately describing the belief in god as a delusion ?

We've already had a long discussion about the topic in another thread.
What did you read in my post that you thought was co-opted ?
I used the term mental disorder to describe their belief in a god whose realism rests entirely in their own minds.
Grandiose delusions are mental disorders.
The delusions are generally fantastic and typically have a supernatural, science-fictional, or religious theme



Grandiose type symptoms include grossly exaggerated belief of:
*self-worth
*power
*knowledge
*identity
*or exceptional relationship to a divinity or famous person.


What part of this do you see as a mockery of science ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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01-01-2013, 09:57 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science!
(01-01-2013 09:34 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  In what way was I making a mockery of psychology by accurately describing the belief in god as a delusion ?
We've already had a long discussion about the topic in another thread.
What did you read in my post that you thought was co-opted ?
I used the term mental disorder to describe their belief in a god whose realism rests entirely in their own minds.
Grandiose delusions are mental disorders.
The delusions are generally fantastic and typically have a supernatural, science-fictional, or religious theme


Grandiose type symptoms include grossly exaggerated belief of:
*self-worth
*power
*knowledge
*identity
*or exceptional relationship to a divinity or famous person.


What part of this do you see as a mockery of science ?
I was primarily responding to Ghost's post not necessarily yours. Though to be honest I did misread a portion of your post. I thought you had said that delusions are beyond science, when in fact you did not say that. For that I apologize.

That said, I think a belief in god is irrational but that in no way makes it necessarily delusional. Especially when it is explicitly linked to psychological disorders. While it is true that schizophrenics can have serious delusions that involve the religious experience it is not accurate or fair to lump every believer into this category. It is disingenuous. I seriously doubt that you think that belief in god = schizophrenia.

To equate a possibly irrational belief or maybe a misguided belief as a psychological disorder does co opt psychology to attempt make a point. If that was not your intent, that was at least my perception of your point.
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01-01-2013, 10:32 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science!
(01-01-2013 09:57 PM)BioPsychMS Wrote:  
(01-01-2013 09:34 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  In what way was I making a mockery of psychology by accurately describing the belief in god as a delusion ?
We've already had a long discussion about the topic in another thread.
What did you read in my post that you thought was co-opted ?
I used the term mental disorder to describe their belief in a god whose realism rests entirely in their own minds.
Grandiose delusions are mental disorders.
The delusions are generally fantastic and typically have a supernatural, science-fictional, or religious theme


Grandiose type symptoms include grossly exaggerated belief of:
*self-worth
*power
*knowledge
*identity
*or exceptional relationship to a divinity or famous person.


What part of this do you see as a mockery of science ?
I was primarily responding to Ghost's post not necessarily yours. Though to be honest I did misread a portion of your post. I thought you had said that delusions are beyond science, when in fact you did not say that. For that I apologize.

That said, I think a belief in god is irrational but that in no way makes it necessarily delusional. Especially when it is explicitly linked to psychological disorders. While it is true that schizophrenics can have serious delusions that involve the religious experience it is not accurate or fair to lump every believer into this category. It is disingenuous. I seriously doubt that you think that belief in god = schizophrenia.

To equate a possibly irrational belief or maybe a misguided belief as a psychological disorder does co opt psychology to attempt make a point. If that was not your intent, that was at least my perception of your point.
Problem solved.



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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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01-01-2013, 11:28 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science!
Like the video. Decent summary of at least one innate cognitive bias.
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