God is "beyond" science!
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01-01-2013, 09:01 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science!
Hey, Chas.

There's a difference between a scientist taking a personal stand and a scientist having incontrovertible evidence. If Stenger had published inconrovertible evidence, wouldn't this entire thing be over?

If science is incaoable of finding evidence of God then how is it a comment on God that science has found no evidence of it?

You keep repeating that someone has simply defined God as beyond science. But that's not the case. There are very serious arguments as for why God is beyond science, not the least of which come from scientists.

Again, if I light a match and burn a piece of paper, that's a series of natural phenomena. Every single step of that is understandable, measurable, predictable, repeatable and knowable. But if, say, a bush were ro burn without expending its fuel, that is not a natural phenomenon because it violates natural law. How can you determine how it is that the bush burned without expending any fuel if there is no corresponding natural law? You cannot. You can't repeat it. You can't measure it. You can't make predictions about it. And you can't determine the natural cause because there wasn't one. This is what is meant by there being no emmpirical evidence. This is why it's beyond science.

Just seeing something is NOT empirical evidence. If I see a ghost, that's empirical evidence of Ghosts? If I see bigfoot, that's empirical evidence of bigfoot? UFOs? Loch Ness?

This is the central thing that hasn't been mentioned. Revelation. People get their knickers up about God because they say God revealed himself to them. That's God interacting with the real world. That's God being seen. That's nothing even aproaching empirical evidence.

So it's not my definition of science. It's the definition of science. And this isn't just a matter of someone saying God is beyond science without any cause. It's a matter of mechanics.

Hey, Amy.

There's nothing saying that it wouldn't be perceptible by the senses. In fact the claim is that it has been.

That's the quandry isn't it? Do you believe without evidence? But if you're waiting for scientific evidence, you're going to be waiting a long time.

Now we're really getting into the spirit of "God is beyond science". You wouldn't know who was right until you were dead because science cannot tell us which is right. People think they're right because someone somewhere claimed that God revealed themselves to them. They have no evidence of this, because evidence doesn't exist for Gods. So they tell people, "Trust me, it happened." And people either do or they don't, not becuse there's evidence, but because they have faith in it. When all is said and done, science has nothing to do with it.

Returning to someday, maybe someday my Great Grandomther will rise from the dead to do an all-folk music review. Maybe. But bodies don't do that. So why would I think it's possible. Science doesn't comment on the supernatural. So why would I assume that someday it might?

To answer your questions:
1 - Someone said they saw a God once, that idea caught on, the person is acculturated to believe that, they do believe that. But more than that, it's an important part of their culture and their self-identity.
2 - Yes, authority certainly has something to do with it. It say that it has more to do with influence.
3 - I don't even know that the evidence qualifies as anecdotal Cool But yeah. Some dead person said it happened.
4 - It is allegedly seeable via revelation, it is untestable, and it is unknowable scientifically, but knowable on an individual basis through revelation (if one is lucky enough to have one) and knowable through faith. There's no scientific reason to believe it's there, but that's the point of all this. It isn't a scientific question. It's a question of faith.
5 - Saying it's beyond science isn't a cop out any more than saying gravity is measureable is a cop out. It's how science works. Science doesn't just say that God is beyond science. Science says that every singe conceivable metphysical question or supernatural explanation is beyond science. Saying that it's within the realm of science when science is incapable of commenting on it is the cop out. I get it. If one admits that it's beyond science it opens up all kinds of doors for Theists to say "in yo face!" But at least its honest. Isn't that what we as scientists strive to be? Who cares if it's beyond science? It doesn't mean that Theists are right. It doesn't invalidate science in any way, shape, or form. It reinforces the central idea of science, that science is for examining natural phenomena by looking at empirical evidence, it isn't about confirming or denying metaphysical claims. Science just assumes there is no supernatural and goes about its day. Leave the metaphysical to the philosophers and in so doing, let it be known that no metaphysical question can ever be considered to have either the support or dismissal of science. You do your thing, we'll do ours and never the twain shall meet.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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Messages In This Thread
God is "beyond" science! - GodlessnFree - 29-12-2012, 06:46 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - fstratzero - 29-12-2012, 07:02 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Rahn127 - 30-12-2012, 01:06 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - BioPsychMS - 30-12-2012, 02:03 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - ddrew - 30-12-2012, 02:13 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 30-12-2012, 02:11 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Phaedrus - 30-12-2012, 02:15 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - BioPsychMS - 30-12-2012, 02:34 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - morondog - 30-12-2012, 02:52 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Rahn127 - 30-12-2012, 11:20 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 30-12-2012, 11:24 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - morondog - 30-12-2012, 11:29 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Phaedrus - 30-12-2012, 01:31 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Impulse - 30-12-2012, 01:25 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 30-12-2012, 03:09 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - BioPsychMS - 30-12-2012, 05:52 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 30-12-2012, 03:16 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Phaedrus - 30-12-2012, 04:19 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - fstratzero - 30-12-2012, 07:00 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - fstratzero - 30-12-2012, 03:27 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - fstratzero - 30-12-2012, 03:41 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 30-12-2012, 04:05 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - fstratzero - 30-12-2012, 04:14 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Chas - 30-12-2012, 04:14 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Rahn127 - 30-12-2012, 04:34 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Rahn127 - 30-12-2012, 05:52 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 30-12-2012, 07:27 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - BioPsychMS - 30-12-2012, 08:17 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - amyb - 30-12-2012, 09:20 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Phaedrus - 30-12-2012, 07:56 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 30-12-2012, 08:18 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - BioPsychMS - 30-12-2012, 08:48 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Phaedrus - 30-12-2012, 09:19 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 31-12-2012, 12:50 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Phaedrus - 31-12-2012, 01:08 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 31-12-2012, 01:43 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - kingschosen - 31-12-2012, 02:05 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - morondog - 31-12-2012, 02:23 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Diablo - 31-12-2012, 03:56 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 31-12-2012, 07:46 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Chas - 31-12-2012, 08:02 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - amyb - 31-12-2012, 11:49 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 01-01-2013, 01:54 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - amyb - 01-01-2013, 03:02 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Chas - 01-01-2013, 07:00 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 01-01-2013 09:01 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Vosur - 01-01-2013, 09:12 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Starcrash - 01-01-2013, 09:43 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Chas - 01-01-2013, 10:09 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Starcrash - 02-01-2013, 10:18 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 01-01-2013, 09:24 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Vosur - 01-01-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - amyb - 01-01-2013, 09:28 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 01-01-2013, 10:15 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Rahn127 - 01-01-2013, 11:57 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 01-01-2013, 07:01 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Chas - 01-01-2013, 07:12 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - BioPsychMS - 01-01-2013, 07:20 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Rahn127 - 01-01-2013, 09:34 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - BioPsychMS - 01-01-2013, 09:57 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - fstratzero - 01-01-2013, 10:32 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 01-01-2013, 07:29 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Chas - 01-01-2013, 07:39 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - BioPsychMS - 01-01-2013, 11:28 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - DLJ - 02-01-2013, 03:30 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 02-01-2013, 08:33 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - fstratzero - 05-01-2013, 03:33 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Denicio - 04-01-2013, 12:30 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Luminon - 04-01-2013, 05:01 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - fstratzero - 05-01-2013, 03:52 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 06-01-2013, 10:57 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - fstratzero - 07-01-2013, 12:08 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Starcrash - 07-01-2013, 08:49 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Phaedrus - 07-01-2013, 12:24 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 07-01-2013, 11:27 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - fstratzero - 08-01-2013, 01:41 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Starcrash - 08-01-2013, 08:40 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 08-01-2013, 09:41 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Starcrash - 09-01-2013, 11:19 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - fstratzero - 09-01-2013, 02:25 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - sadetec - 09-01-2013, 09:01 AM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 09-01-2013, 02:09 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Starcrash - 09-01-2013, 07:25 PM
Re: God is "beyond" science! - Phaedrus - 09-01-2013, 09:47 PM
RE: God is "beyond" science! - Ghost - 09-01-2013, 10:49 PM
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