God is cruel. But it's OK, because he's God.
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21-01-2016, 01:11 PM
God is cruel. But it's OK, because he's God.
I tend to keep my mouth shut when surfing threw Youtube. I hold my anger in until I get here.

But I fell upon this video that kept poping up in my suggestions box.





I have to admit I didn't make it threw the whole thing. And the first few minutes in was really all I could bare. About 1:36 in he makes allegory about God is a caring father, that shouldn't be at fault if his child ran into the road.

My response as follows.

CS

Quote:There is a major flaw in your opening response 1:44
A Father would feel bad about not being there for his son when he was driven over by his car. Even if he let's say in the back yard BBQing and Jr. was playing in the street. Yes of course

But this can not be applied to the God that most people present. It would be more like if the Father walked the son to the road, made the car. Put the driver "Satan' in the car. Stood next to the road to watch the car run over the boy even thou he had the ability or time to prevent the event. Then get upset and say well he shouldn't have been playing in the street. Why didn't he listen to me. And while all this was going on, he was still BBQing in the backyard.

When people talk about God (or at least the Christian one) they say things like he's the creator of all, nothing is outside his abilities! Well except of course for forgiveness. That's why he made himself Jesus right? So that he could sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself, for the "sins" that he created. Or the millions of lives that were snuffed out in the flood. Instead of talking to everyone and everything on the planet telling them to get their shit together or else. He talked to one guy and made him build a impossible boat.
Instead of I don't know JUST MAKING ONE OUT OF NOTHING LIKE HE SUPPOSEDLY CAN DO!

And whenever I hear people say "well he really wants to help but...freewill." Is he really that powerless? Is this the Rock he created so large that even he can't lift?

Anyway I would go on but no ones attention span is that long.

3:29 Congratulations on your new daughter. Be a better father then God ever could.

Several months past and I forgot I even posted it.

Annoyingdude76 (not joking real screen name)
Quote:+CommonSensei81 there is a problem in your parallel. God is not a human so He is not in any sense required to defend us. He is the primal Creator, so all He needs to do is create us and He is in no obligation to help us, yet He still does. All the evil and calamity that hit the people were caused by natural or other supernatural causes. God only takes the blame since the Bible is a theocentric book. So don't make such rash conclusions ok?

CS
Quote:So here are some of my queries.

1. What would you define as a God? How would I be able to distinguish a god from any other being?

2. If God is allowed to work on a different set of moral rules to what standard dose he create our? Why the separation?

3. What is supernatural? What is something I can compare it to? Wouldn't something that happened in the natural world just be a natural occurrence?
Show less

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Quote:+CommonSensei81 ''So here are some of my queries. '' go for it
''1. What would you define as a God? How would I be able to distinguish a god from any other being?'' easy, although you'd actually have to know this before bringing up anything about God, but fair enough. You asked nicely.

by God I mean a Maximally Great Being, meaning omnipotent, omnibenevolent, beyond time, space, matter, also unchanging, all-knowing... etc... Literally there is no being like Him.

''2. If God is allowed to work on a different set of moral rules to what standard dose he create our? Why the separation?''

Easy He makes the rules and (since He is omnibenevolent) He'd be the best source for any objective meaning to morals since it would be grounded in a morally perfect being. as for the separation of our moral duties and His, it's easy. We aren't God and therefore we literally can't be on the same level as Him. He knows who and what we are and sets up rules for us that we can choose to listen or not to listen.

''What is supernatural? What is something I can compare it to? Wouldn't something that happened in the natural world just be a natural occurrence?''

easy, something beyond nature (time, space, matter, energy, gravity...). Things like abstract objects or an immaterial Mind.
As for comparison, if you are looking for comparison in nature then there is gonna be a problem since it's literally beyond nature so finding a parallel will be hard. But let's take for example a program and a programer (a dude writing programs). Is a programer beyond a program or not?
As for is something in the natural world natural. obviously yes, a lot of things are just natural events. But is it possible for a supernatural agent to intervene in nature? Theoretically, yes, of course.

Man, I should really write shorter sentences.

Since he was kind enough to give a clear and a (personally) honest answer. I tried to convince him that to have this debate here. He said he doesn't feel comfortable on forums. So i preceded.

CS
Quote:No worries.

So back on topic. So your problem wasn't so much with the premise of the story. You just feel that God gets a pass on morality. Don't you feel that would be a little hypocritical?

We could turn this into a back and forth on our views. But I'm not really interested in getting into a shouting match. But I think i'm more interested in how you arrived to these definitions/conclustions.

The Abrahamic God (as depicted in the bible) doesn't have any of the abilities that you presented.

So are you a believer in a different God? If so, how did you "test" the limits of this god to know it was the real deal? How do you identify yourself?

On the forum I mentioned I've had the opportunity to talk to people with that have said they've met God, Jesus, Allah, Vishnu an Earth Spirit personally. And each one that I've talked to gives a different definition. Everything from a perfect man with a halo to a microscopic energy that moves atoms.

With your definition how did you rule out these other gods that this could apply you?

If a supernatural event affects the natural world; Wouldn't that still be considered an natural occurrence? Would we be able look at that occurrence and see that it didn't belong in reality that we've come to know?

I await his response. Sometimes we take a day or two to respond to each other but i'll post when it comes around.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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21-01-2016, 02:37 PM
RE: God is cruel. But it's OK, because he's God.
(21-01-2016 01:11 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  I tend to keep my mouth shut when surfing threw Youtube. I hold my anger in until I get here.

But I fell upon this video that kept poping up in my suggestions box.





I have to admit I didn't make it threw the whole thing. And the first few minutes in was really all I could bare. About 1:36 in he makes allegory about God is a caring father, that shouldn't be at fault if his child ran into the road.

My response as follows.

CS

Quote:There is a major flaw in your opening response 1:44
A Father would feel bad about not being there for his son when he was driven over by his car. Even if he let's say in the back yard BBQing and Jr. was playing in the street. Yes of course

But this can not be applied to the God that most people present. It would be more like if the Father walked the son to the road, made the car. Put the driver "Satan' in the car. Stood next to the road to watch the car run over the boy even thou he had the ability or time to prevent the event. Then get upset and say well he shouldn't have been playing in the street. Why didn't he listen to me. And while all this was going on, he was still BBQing in the backyard.

When people talk about God (or at least the Christian one) they say things like he's the creator of all, nothing is outside his abilities! Well except of course for forgiveness. That's why he made himself Jesus right? So that he could sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself, for the "sins" that he created. Or the millions of lives that were snuffed out in the flood. Instead of talking to everyone and everything on the planet telling them to get their shit together or else. He talked to one guy and made him build a impossible boat.
Instead of I don't know JUST MAKING ONE OUT OF NOTHING LIKE HE SUPPOSEDLY CAN DO!

And whenever I hear people say "well he really wants to help but...freewill." Is he really that powerless? Is this the Rock he created so large that even he can't lift?

Anyway I would go on but no ones attention span is that long.

3:29 Congratulations on your new daughter. Be a better father then God ever could.

Several months past and I forgot I even posted it.

Annoyingdude76 (not joking real screen name)
Quote:+CommonSensei81 there is a problem in your parallel. God is not a human so He is not in any sense required to defend us. He is the primal Creator, so all He needs to do is create us and He is in no obligation to help us, yet He still does. All the evil and calamity that hit the people were caused by natural or other supernatural causes. God only takes the blame since the Bible is a theocentric book. So don't make such rash conclusions ok?

CS
Quote:So here are some of my queries.

1. What would you define as a God? How would I be able to distinguish a god from any other being?

2. If God is allowed to work on a different set of moral rules to what standard dose he create our? Why the separation?

3. What is supernatural? What is something I can compare it to? Wouldn't something that happened in the natural world just be a natural occurrence?
Show less

AD
Quote:+CommonSensei81 ''So here are some of my queries. '' go for it
''1. What would you define as a God? How would I be able to distinguish a god from any other being?'' easy, although you'd actually have to know this before bringing up anything about God, but fair enough. You asked nicely.

by God I mean a Maximally Great Being, meaning omnipotent, omnibenevolent, beyond time, space, matter, also unchanging, all-knowing... etc... Literally there is no being like Him.

''2. If God is allowed to work on a different set of moral rules to what standard dose he create our? Why the separation?''

Easy He makes the rules and (since He is omnibenevolent) He'd be the best source for any objective meaning to morals since it would be grounded in a morally perfect being. as for the separation of our moral duties and His, it's easy. We aren't God and therefore we literally can't be on the same level as Him. He knows who and what we are and sets up rules for us that we can choose to listen or not to listen.

''What is supernatural? What is something I can compare it to? Wouldn't something that happened in the natural world just be a natural occurrence?''

easy, something beyond nature (time, space, matter, energy, gravity...). Things like abstract objects or an immaterial Mind.
As for comparison, if you are looking for comparison in nature then there is gonna be a problem since it's literally beyond nature so finding a parallel will be hard. But let's take for example a program and a programer (a dude writing programs). Is a programer beyond a program or not?
As for is something in the natural world natural. obviously yes, a lot of things are just natural events. But is it possible for a supernatural agent to intervene in nature? Theoretically, yes, of course.

Man, I should really write shorter sentences.

Since he was kind enough to give a clear and a (personally) honest answer. I tried to convince him that to have this debate here. He said he doesn't feel comfortable on forums. So i preceded.

CS
Quote:No worries.

So back on topic. So your problem wasn't so much with the premise of the story. You just feel that God gets a pass on morality. Don't you feel that would be a little hypocritical?

We could turn this into a back and forth on our views. But I'm not really interested in getting into a shouting match. But I think i'm more interested in how you arrived to these definitions/conclustions.

The Abrahamic God (as depicted in the bible) doesn't have any of the abilities that you presented.

So are you a believer in a different God? If so, how did you "test" the limits of this god to know it was the real deal? How do you identify yourself?

On the forum I mentioned I've had the opportunity to talk to people with that have said they've met God, Jesus, Allah, Vishnu an Earth Spirit personally. And each one that I've talked to gives a different definition. Everything from a perfect man with a halo to a microscopic energy that moves atoms.

With your definition how did you rule out these other gods that this could apply you?

If a supernatural event affects the natural world; Wouldn't that still be considered an natural occurrence? Would we be able look at that occurrence and see that it didn't belong in reality that we've come to know?

I await his response. Sometimes we take a day or two to respond to each other but i'll post when it comes around.

Well that's easy to answer. The people who wrote the OT wanted to put the fear of God into people.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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21-01-2016, 03:08 PM
RE: God is cruel. But it's OK, because he's God.
If he's asserting that god is under no obligation to follow any human moral sensibilities, then he certainly can't be trusted to tell the truth, so he cannot assert any truth about the characteristics of such a god.

Robbypants made a great post about it:

Why Do Christians Trust YHWH?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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21-01-2016, 03:25 PM
RE: God is cruel. But it's OK, because he's God.
Thanks i'm open to any advice.

I'm going to try to come at this differently then I have in the past. I wanted to tare into him about the ridiculousness of the Omni claims. But I trying a softer approach. There isn't any real traffic on the guys youtube video. So i'm not expecting a flood of commentators. But I have been wrong before.

I've been watching this one guy on Youtube Anthony Magnabosco https://www.youtube.com/user/magnabosco210
He take a very casual approach and just asks questions. He doesn't force his thoughts on people he just listens. Then with a few well placed question he gets people to think about what they believe. Sometimes it doesn't go over well. But it not because he's being abrasive, it only because the people don't like thinking that they may be wrong. So i'm going to try it from his method. I'll see how well I do with it.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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22-01-2016, 08:34 AM
RE: God is cruel. But it's OK, because he's God.
Everything Annoyingdude said is technically true (I mean, so long as you're presupposing God exists in the first place). There is nothing logically invalid about God making rules for us and him being immune to them. This actually makes a lot of apologetics easier and less contradictory.

...of course, all they mange to prove is that you should genuflect to God out of fear and not out of love. And the worst part is that you have to hope that God isn't just fucking with you and sending you to hell anyway, because there's no reason to take anything that god says at face value.
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22-01-2016, 09:33 AM
RE: God is cruel. But it's OK, because he's God.
I could play the "Do you think God is a trickster god?" card. Since he is able to run on his own rules, he could be lying that any salvation is possible. That could remove the Omnibenevolence from the list.

If he comes back with "God is incapable of lying." then that could remove the Omnipotent, or even Omniscient from his definition.

Or even "Is God is incapable of forgiving without sacrifice?" If he is; then Jesus's sacrifice could have been removed. And he was doing just for shits and giggles. If he's not then that would show a limitation on his ability. Having to take the Omnipotent out of the definition.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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22-01-2016, 09:56 AM
RE: God is cruel. But it's OK, because he's God.
(22-01-2016 09:33 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  I could play the "Do you think God is a trickster god?" card. Since he is able to run on his own rules, he could be lying that any salvation is possible. That could remove the Omnibenevolence from the list.

If he comes back with "God is incapable of lying." then that could remove the Omnipotent, or even Omniscient from his definition.

Really, when you look at all the shit that he does under the guise of "mysterious ways", the whole trickster god thing explains it better, anyway. I mean, which two answers best describe this scenario:

God created a world with an environment hostile to us, communicates his intentions with us very poorly, goes out of his way to kill us for problems he caused, and sets up a nonsensical punishment/reward system, all while being completely nonfalsifiable.

a) all-powerful, loving entity with an unlimited number of options at his disposal, who did it this way for unstated reasons
b) trickster god who's fucking with us for unstated reasons


(22-01-2016 09:33 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Or even "Is God is incapable of forgiving without sacrifice?" If he is; then Jesus's sacrifice could have been removed. And he was doing just for shits and giggles. If he's not then that would show a limitation on his ability. Having to take the Omnipotent out of the definition.

They'll respond that he can do anything that's within his nature... but they cannot prove that his nature doesn't involve lying. I'm having this exact discussion with someone at AF right now, and he's dodging the shit out of that issue. He keeps replying with utter non sequiturs, because he has to.

I say: "all we have is a claim that he won't lie. He could be lying when making that claim"

And he says "if he cannot lie, then he can only tell the truth, tautologically"

I mean, no shit, but that's not what I said! [Image: skeptical-sm_zps59fc1324.png]
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22-01-2016, 10:30 AM
RE: God is cruel. But it's OK, because he's God.
+CommonSensei81 ''You just feel that God gets a pass on morality''

well, more like Him being on a totally different level. Like how you will have animals and humans and obviously what we do differs. You aren't gonna sue a lion for murder of some animal or something... you get the point.

''Don't you feel that would be a little hypocritical?''


well, no.

'' But I think i'm more interested in how you arrived to these definitions/conclustions.''

ok, that's fine

''The Abrahamic God (as depicted in the bible) doesn't have any of the abilities that you presented.''


what makes you say that? As someone who is described as unchanging and who's name literally signifies that He is a necessary existent being or saying that He is beyond any other being in existence (which would, in the Biblical world include other supernatural beings), and basically the creator of everything... it means that He fits into the concept of a Maximally Great Being with no problems. Other Gods who qualify are Allah or the deistic God or maybe some Hindu deity that fits the description or maybe some of the Greek philosophers ideas of this being.

''So are you a believer in a different God?''
nope, I believe in the Biblical God. But we can't talk about Him until we get the basic ideas of a Maximally Great Being at least. That's why I'm starting with that.

''If so, how did you "test" the limits of this god to know it was the real deal?''

I don't get the question, can you rephrase it please?

''How do you identify yourself?''


non-denominational Christian. You?

''talk to people with that have said they've met God''


interesting, met as in person or in a spiritual sense? I should note that I don't believe every claim someone makes about God. Like in your example of people who say they met God. I won't be the kind of guy who claims that they all met God nor the kind who dismisses all of their claims. I usually use the notion that ''if it makes sense, then ok, i trust that it's true''

'' And each one that I've talked to gives a different definition''

ok, it's no surprise really. It's because the definition I gave is the one used by philosophers who like to talk about such a being. And I can't expect that every-day people know this. They may describe Him in one way but it doesn't necessary mean that it negates the other attributes. Like if a child describes a car and like if a mechanic describes a car. Both are talking about eh same thing, but only difference is their description due to their knowledge.

''very thing from a perfect man with a halo to a microscopic energy that moves atoms.''


oh, ok this is a bit different. If we are talking about how he appeared to them then it's different topic. Since theoretically he could appear as a man with a halo, or as light... and so on. Whatever he thinks would be the best way to present Himself to the person, He can do it. No reason to think he can't.

''With your definition how did you rule out these other gods that this could apply you? ''
as I said, I didn't rule them out if we are speaking about appearance. I only rule out beings who's idea is not like the one I (or profesional philosophers) described since they would then be either logically impossible or ridiculous.

''Wouldn't that still be considered an natural occurrence?''

well no, since there's a supernatural agent involved. So literally by definition it can't be a natural phenomenon. It can operate in the natural world, but it's not a natural process because an outside agent intervened.

''Would we be able look at that occurrence and see that it didn't belong in reality that we've come to know?''


well if natural explanations fail for this certain event, then yes, a supernatural one would be the most plausable explanation.
On a side note, I got to applaud you for asking questions and keeping an open mind. It's rare these days.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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22-01-2016, 12:44 PM
RE: God is cruel. But it's OK, because he's God.
What makes you say that?

It's a really long list. But i'll start at the some from the beginning in Genesis.

Genesis. 2:2
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

There must be a limit to his abiltys if he is going to have to take a nap. Or if he even would have to sleep, sit down. It demonstrates he exerted himself.

Genesis 3:9 - 11
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Why is a omnipotent being need to ask these questions? Or even an Omnipresent one? Did he not have the foresight to see that any of these events would take place? Or be present for them while they happened?

Genesis 11: 4-8
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

With what we know about space now. Wouldn't this story demonstrate God over reacting? Also if God was outside of time and space (No idea how that works.) Wouldn't heaven be there also? So a tower would never have the possibility of reaching such a place. It also say he had to come down. Which would imply he wasn't their to start with which means no omnipresence.

Now many many more stories go on to show this modern interpretation was not originally intended. But the best I could say is reread your bible. You'll find more often then not God doesn't have foresight or knowledge on events that have or will accrue. Isn't present during events. At least from the stories stand point.

Which leads into the question How did you "Test" the limets of the god you adhere to. I didn't feel Test was the best word that's why I put it in quotes. Maybe How did you derive to this conclusion. Maybe personal revelation, you were visited by, you were told. That sort of thing then from there you compared it to things you did know. Like how we find out Cheetahs are the fastest land animal or Whales are the largest mammals. Like in your definition you say he's timeless. How can we come to that conclusion? When time has yet to stop.

'|'How do you identify yourself?''

non-denominational Christian. You?|


I'm currently identify myself as an Agnostic Atheist. Former Catholic. Former Theist.

|interesting, met as in person or in a spiritual sense? I should note that I don't believe every claim someone makes about God. Like in your example of people who say they met God. I won't be the kind of guy who claims that they all met God nor the kind who dismisses all of their claims. I usually use the notion that ''if it makes sense, then ok, i trust that it's true''|

Different people different interpretations. One said he was sitting in a chair while reading the bible and angel appeared in front of him full bodied and told him god loved him.

Another told me she doesn't see them but hears voices of the holy spirit that tell her to do things.

When pressed with questions. They would prefer just to have it be accepted then questioned so it always ends the same way "well this is just what I believe."

As you could imagine i'm skeptical on the whole thing. And it's calming to hear you take the same approach.

|ok, it's no surprise really. It's because the definition I gave is the one used by philosophers who like to talk about such a being. And I can't expect that every-day people know this.|

Ok. I think I understand. So this definition that you chose isn't so much the one you came to the conlucstion on. With your own worldly experiences. It's just the most popular right now. Wouldn't it be better for a God to speak at a level that every-day people could interpret? We can see the problem when people take the word of others at face value when we look at Scientology, or any number of smaller cults.

| I didn't rule them out if we are speaking about appearance. I only rule out beings who's idea is not like the one I (or profesional philosophers) described since they would then be either logically impossible or ridiculous.|

Their have been many Professional Philosophers that I would imagine you wouldn't accept. What are some of the Philosophers your deriving from? I'd like to look into them.

|On a side note, I got to applaud you for asking questions and keeping an open mind. It's rare these days.|

If the world asked more questions, maybe we'd get more answers. As I said in past post this could turn into "THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE!" "NO THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE!" but where dose that get us? I much rather ask questions and get a straight honest answer. I'm searching for the truth. If you arrived at the answer that god is real, and it turns out he is then I would like to she how. If the Wiccan's earth spirts are true I'd like to see how. I want to "believe" as many True things as possible.

Man we're wordy.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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23-01-2016, 10:11 AM
RE: God is cruel. But it's OK, because he's God.
+CommonSensei81 ''But i'll start at the some from the beginning in Genesis.''

ok, let's see then.

''There must be a limit to his abiltys if he is going to have to take a nap''

um the thing is, is that He's not resting as in He's too tired. He's resting as in he stopped creating. But don't take my word for it, look it up yourself. It's really important to keep in mind the context, espetially in a collection of ANE books.

''Why is a omnipotent being need to ask these questions?''

easy, it's not for His sake, it's for their sake. He doesn't need knowledge about where they are, nobody believes that. He's asking so they can respond, since they are normal humans. It's like with prayer, He doesn't need info about what you want or something.

''Did he not have the foresight to see that any of these events would take place?''

indeed He had foreseen this. Like every other action ever.

''Wouldn't this story demonstrate God over reacting?''

well if we know what building the tower represented, then no, it would have been a totally rational way of dealing with it. Historical knowledge helps here.

''Wouldn't heaven be there also? ''

well it depends on what heaven we're talking about. If you mean the (supernatural) heavenly realm, then yes. But if we mean the sky, then no of course not.

''So a tower would never have the possibility of reaching such a place''


again, we must keep in mind that we are talking about a historical, poetic, theological, judical... collection of ANE books that were meant (and this is important) for an average Israelite living 3000+ years ago. They have no knowledge of sophisticated concepts or of metaphysics (it got better around the second temple period).

'' You'll find more often then not God doesn't have foresight or knowledge on events that have or will accrue''


in all honesty, I have not seen anything that would go against such an idea. I only read an ancient text the way it was went to be read. Also just because the narration doesn't say that God was present does nothing to my point. If He's omnipresent then he is always present everywhere. And that's where theology comes in. That's why we have many intelligent theologians throughout history who developed the concept that we know as God, in order for people to understand it. For example, we don't have the words ''hypostatic union'' in the Bible, we get to it by doing theology.

''Maybe How did you derive to this conclusion.''

again, I don't understand the ''this'' conclusion? The idea that a Maximally Great being exists? Or that that being is the Biblical deity? For the sake of argument I'll assume it's the second one (correct me if it's not that one).

I came to that conclusion because of the character and historical events surrounding Jesus of Nazareth. As a historian I know how history functions, and I know that something incredible had to happen, and all the evidence suggested the resurrection to be the most plausable explanation. So if He really was how He said He was then His words must be true, and if His words are true then so must be the things He taught (which would include the OT).

''Maybe personal revelation, you were visited by, you were told''


no, just did research and came to that conclusion. No revelation or anything like that.

''Like how we find out Cheetahs are the fastest land animal or '' well I'm not an expert or animals (far from it) but I believe that what the ''Animal Planet'' channel says is true. That's how I (and obviously everyone) know that cheetahs are the fastest and so on.

''Like in your definition you say he's timeless. How can we come to that conclusion? ''

If we are talking as least hypotetically, then we can say that if such a being exists it (some actions that I listed) could be totally possible for Him. But as for why this being exists and has to be in reality timeless then it has to do with why I believe that being exists in the first place, and that would have to do with the arguments presented by theologians and philosophers about: origin of the universe, or objective morality or origin of information or why the universe is fine tuned or just the overall incoherence of naturalism... that's why I believe this being exists, by pure logic. And it also gives support that He has to be timeless.

''yself as an Agnostic Atheist. Former Catholic''


In all honestly, I think that the two terms ''atheist'' and ''agnostic'' are seperate. But ok, it doesn't affect our arguments.

''Different people different interpretations''

true, and it has always been so. It doesn't therefore mean we can't know anything. Scientists have different opinions of some topics, historians too, doctors too, politicians too. Doesn't mean that we can throw out science or medicine and so on, right?

''They would prefer just to have it be accepted then questioned so it always ends the same way "well this is just what I believe." '' well ok then, I can't say do I believe them since I haven't met them or did any investigation. So I'll remain agnostic on that topic.
''With your own worldly experiences'' well yeah, I mean as I said I haven't experienced some divine revelation. I was just listening to what profesional philosophers and theologians said and was thinking about the subject, and it made sense.

''Wouldn't it be better for a God to speak at a level that every-day people could interpret?''

better? Yes. But it would kill off the purpose of freewill. He will interact with us to an extent that we are willing to interact with Him (at least from a Christian and Judeist point of view).

'P'rofessional Philosophers that I would imagine you wouldn't accept.''

well if they make sense then I'll accept it, if it doesn't then I won't. I mentioned professional philosophers since they are most likely to know about some topics, just like I will ask scientists about science. Some scientists may have strange ideas but we can't discard them all, right?

'' What are some of the Philosophers your deriving from?''


For the ancient period or medieval one, mostly Plato, Aristotle (of course you know about them), maybe Socrates (haven't read anything from him yet), then Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and Augustine (not a fan of Augustine's ideas but he is interesting at least), Thomas Aquinas (same like with Augustine), Ulrich Zwingli (I really like him), Emmanuel Swedenborg (same like with Ulrich)... And for modern ones: Seraphim Rose, C.S. Lewis. (not profesional philosophers but still great at reasoning),
William Lane Craig, Anthony Kenny, Alvin Plantinga, John Lennox (note, not a philosopher but still a good source),


''I much rather ask questions and get a straight honest answer. I'm searching for the truth''

glad to hear this, but seriously I'm glad.

''Man we're wordy''


indeed

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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