God is love? Not in this Universe.
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10-07-2013, 10:40 AM (This post was last modified: 10-07-2013 10:44 AM by Starcrash.)
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 08:25 AM)childeye Wrote:  I adamantly disagree. There is indeed Love in this universe. Ironically, the video you provide is proof of this.

What Sam Harris provided was the common and basic Argument From Evil. He argued that, every time a child is kidnapped and raped, God is standing right there observing and able to intervene but doesn't. The only way to make this situation into God "loving" that child is to completely redefine "love". There are ways to reconcile this (the standard argument is that God cares but doesn't want to interfere with free will), but the counterargument is not found in Sam Harris' argument itself, "ironically" or not.

I agree with the above comments -- I'm pretty sure that you didn't watch the video. I can guess why; even Dr. Craig was uncomfortable with the subject matter (as seen in his body language when the camera switches to him), because even people who can explain the coexistence of God and evil don't *like* the fact that God can, in their worldview, coexist with evil. You, just like us, would do away with such evil if given the power to do it.

Perhaps there's also something to draw from this short statement of yours -- your "adamant" disagreement. No matter what case can be made against your belief in God, you won't change your mind because you absolutely refuse to under any condition. Why do you feel that it would be fair for any of us to change our minds, given your personal refusal?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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10-07-2013, 10:41 AM (This post was last modified: 10-07-2013 11:00 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 08:25 AM)childeye Wrote:  I adamantly disagree. There is indeed Love in this universe. Ironically, the video you provide is proof of this.

No one said there was no love in the universe. Your post is irrelevant, and you are dishonestly attempting to change the subject, and assume definitions not in question.
You perversely continue to attempt to redine the meanings of words, and IMPOSE YOUR personal, idiosyncratic meanings onto others, and onto others discussions, and dishonestly attempt to represent those false notions as the actual legitimate position(s) of theists. Either you are really a "heretic", (and your position lies out side that held by communities of believers), or you are simply utterly ignorant of their actual position(s).

1. Your argument is bullshit by theological argument.
a. Colossians 3:14 : "And above all, put on love, the bond of perfection" ..
Saul of Tarsus, (the founder of your cult) told you love was a VIRTUE, (the chief among many). He did NOT say "Love is the god"'.
b. Jebus told you "love the Lord your God with all you heart, soul, mind and strength. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself."
He is not said to have said "Love is the deity".
c. In Romans 12:9, Saul said "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves." He did not say "Love is a deity".
d. If it makes any linguistic sense to say "I love the god" the emotion is not the deity, in your cult. In the Gospel of John he said "For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother".
They clearly are NOT the same concept, which is what you are attempting to assert.

2. Your continued perverse nonsense is also an example of :
a. the syllogistic fallacy of the illicit major,
b. the red herring fallacy,
c. the pathetic fallacy,
d. the definist fallacy,
e. the genetic fallacy,
f. the etymological fallacy,
g. the thought-terminating cliche generalization

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-07-2013, 11:03 AM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
I agree that the video does prove that there is love in this universe. It also demonstrates, rather effectively, that God is not the source of it, nor even A source of it.
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10-07-2013, 11:15 AM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 08:25 AM)childeye Wrote:  I adamantly disagree. There is indeed Love in this universe. Ironically, the video you provide is proof of this.

I must admit I titled this thread as a dig at you sophomoric theology and true to form you made the argument from ignorance (didn't watch the embedded video at all did you) If your god is love then it is the love of a serial killer, a love of a possession not the love of a parent or even the love of a moral being. Any being with power to stop the untold suffering of innocent children that stands by and does nothing is either Impotent or Evil. Since Yahweh (according to his press clippings anyway) is not Impotent then he is Evil not love.

That Hippy-dippy bullshit don't fly in the real world where every 10 minutes 1000 children die of starvation or disease simply for being born in the wrong part of the world. "His ways are not our ways" Damn straight they're not, I'm not an evil psychopath that delights in killing children and then torturing them for eternity.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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10-07-2013, 01:11 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 08:48 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 08:25 AM)childeye Wrote:  I adamantly disagree. There is indeed Love in this universe. Ironically, the video you provide is proof of this.

Methinks you didn't even watch the video.
I can appreciate why you say that. I saw this thread this morning but did not have time to respond as well as I would have liked to.

I also did view the video. It is the same argument made over and over. Basically an accusation of God either not existing because bad things happen or alternatively God must either be evil or impotent according to certain interpretations of terms such as heaven and hell, good and evil, and even the term God itself. It is an understandable and common point of view spoken of in scriptures over and over for thousands of years. The same discussion happening in all of scripture thousands of years ago is the same discussion happening here on this thread.

In my view, and with all possible honesty without bias, I would like to wonder if anyone who supports the accusation against God, has any understanding of what it means to attain the knowledge of good and evil. To me that is what is missing in this videos overall conjecture.
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10-07-2013, 01:20 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 01:11 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 08:48 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  Methinks you didn't even watch the video.
I can appreciate why you say that. I saw this thread this morning but did not have time to respond as well as I would have liked to.

I also did view the video. It is the same argument made over and over. Basically an accusation of God either not existing because bad things happen or alternatively God must either be evil or impotent according to certain interpretations of terms such as heaven and hell, good and evil, and even the term God itself. It is an understandable and common point of view spoken of in scriptures over and over for thousands of years. The same discussion happening in all of scripture thousands of years ago is the same discussion happening here on this thread.

In my view, and with all possible honesty without bias, I would like to wonder if anyone who supports the accusation against God, has any understanding of what it means to attain the knowledge of good and evil. To me that is what is missing in this videos overall conjecture.

So is your God Impotent to stop the deaths of 1000 children every 10 minutes or is he Evil by allowing it to happen when he could stop it?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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10-07-2013, 01:29 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 01:11 PM)childeye Wrote:  I can appreciate why you say that. I saw this thread this morning but did not have time to respond as well as I would have liked to.

I also did view the video. It is the same argument made over and over. Basically an accusation of God either not existing because bad things happen or alternatively God must either be evil or impotent according to certain interpretations of terms such as heaven and hell, good and evil, and even the term God itself. It is an understandable and common point of view spoken of in scriptures over and over for thousands of years. The same discussion happening in all of scripture thousands of years ago is the same discussion happening here on this thread.

In my view, and with all possible honesty without bias, I would like to wonder if anyone who supports the accusation against God, has any understanding of what it means to attain the knowledge of good and evil. To me that is what is missing in this videos overall conjecture.

The problem, you see, is that you're completely incoherent.

Premise: love exists.
Conclusion: therefore God.

That's... not an argument. It's not reason. It's not even comprehensible.

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10-07-2013, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 10-07-2013 04:25 PM by childeye.)
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 11:15 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I must admit I titled this thread as a dig at you sophomoric theology and true to form you made the argument from ignorance (didn't watch the embedded video at all did you)
I had a feeling you had intended this thread for me. You knew I would bite and your worm was diabolically foolproof. Yes I missed you too in case you wondered.

I admit my theology is probably even less than sophomoric. But Truth to me is a simple matter. Either God is or He is not. A simple binary question. I ponder the differing implications and subsequent course of my reasoning based on both of these contrary propositions. But of course this is all futility if I have no definition of the term God. Having been down this road before with you, your knock on God is Love was irresistible.

Quote: If your god is love then it is the love of a serial killer, a love of a possession not the love of a parent or even the love of a moral being.
Respectfully, your first mistake in reasoning is this. You say "your god". The universe was formed from a singularity. Therefore if the term God is to be applied to the source of the energy of creation, it follows in the course of common sense, that He would be every mans' God if in fact He exists. You however have presented a subjective use of the term applied as my personal opinion. Pardon my impatience, but I do not care to proceed in the futility of discussing whether it is my opinion, nor about my opinion that it is your opinion that it is my opinion. For I would agree wholeheartedly that it would be stupidity to base God's existence on any man's opinion.

The rest of your proposition regarding the Character of God and his intentions as the love of a serial killer is equally without proper understanding according to my sophomoric theology. Quite simply, only a perversion of Love would get thrills from watching others suffer, not a self sacrificing, True and wholesome Love. With this in mind, let's not conflate malice with Love and deceive ourselves with the semantics of words.

The fact is, we would not even surmise what is good or evil without a sense of what true Love is. Nor could we define what is good and what is evil pertaining to how we treat one another, or even care whether or not we care how we affect each others lives. Love is what is good, and what is evil is not what Love would desire. Finally, if God exists as Creator, then the only reason we can tell what is moral and immoral is our God given Love. Hence if God exists, True Love is Godliness. Thanks be to God that He should allow us to experience the Light of His Spirit.

However, if God doesn't exist, then life is a temporary existence where all that is learned and experienced will eventually come to futility. Therefore what is hope? Hope is for the dope.

Quote:Therefore, Any being with power to stop the untold suffering of innocent children that stands by and does nothing is either Impotent or Evil. Since Yahweh (according to his press clippings anyway) is not Impotent then he is Evil not love.
Either that, or we doubted His Holiness, His integrity, and His intentions toward us and therefore partook of knowledge that brought us suffering and death despite His Loving advice. Moreover, you have not considered what vanity is and how it works. Nor do you contemplate what distrust and trust is, and how faith is a key component to understanding many enlightening perspectives. Please note: If God stopped our suffering, how would the doubt in His integrity be eliminated in the face of vanity and the voice of cynicism?

I don't think you've thought this through. If only one child had died in the tsunami, God could be blamed for the experience of such a loss since He allowed it to happen. But because of vanity and cynicism, no thanks would ever be given for the thousands of children that were spared. The thought to do so would not even come to mind. And if no children died at all, still no gratitude would be given for the life that existed in the first place. All of creation seems to only appreciate what they were given only when it is gone. What is the mind that would take good from God without even knowing it was good so as to bring forth sincere gratitude? Hence we must come to know death so as to appreciate life and we can thank God that He knows how to bring forth gratitude out of a persons mouth. If nothing bad ever happened, all that is good would just continue to be taken for granted. Vanity is the usurping of what are precious God given gifts, and counting them as things we deserved because of a spoiled self-centered, ignorant mindset.

Quote:That Hippy-dippy bullshit don't fly in the real world where every 10 minutes 1000 children die of starvation or disease simply for being born in the wrong part of the world. "His ways are not our ways" Damn straight they're not, I'm not an evil psychopath that delights in killing children and then torturing them for eternity.
You can despise the giver of life all you want. I imagine He expects that.
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10-07-2013, 04:03 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 01:29 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The problem, you see, is that you're completely incoherent.

Premise: love exists.
Conclusion: therefore God.

That's... not an argument. It's not reason. It's not even comprehensible.
You make a good point. If I were you, I imagine I would say the same thing. However it is a sound reasoning that Love is a person's moral center and transcends life in many ways. People are made willing to sacrifice themselves for others because of Love. I see no greater power that is good.
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10-07-2013, 04:14 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 04:03 PM)childeye Wrote:  People are made willing to sacrifice themselves for others because of Love. I see no greater power that is good.

Yes indeed. People fly themselves into towers for the love of Allah. It does prove something. I'm not sure it proves what you think it does.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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