God is love? Not in this Universe.
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10-07-2013, 04:28 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 11:03 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  I agree that the video does prove that there is love in this universe. It also demonstrates, rather effectively, that God is not the source of it, nor even A source of it.
I don't agree. The video is the sincere sentiments of a person who has limited sight of the big picture.
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10-07-2013, 04:39 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 04:03 PM)childeye Wrote:  You make a good point. If I were you, I imagine I would say the same thing. However it is a sound reasoning that Love is a person's moral center and transcends life in many ways. People are made willing to sacrifice themselves for others because of Love. I see no greater power that is good.

Okay.

Premise: love is the foundation of morality.
Corollary: people are willing to sacrifice themselves for their moral beliefs (ie love).
Conclusion A: this is a good thing.
Conclusion B: therefore God.

Nope, still insane troll logic.

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10-07-2013, 04:47 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 03:33 PM)childeye Wrote:  The fact is, we would not even surmise what is good or evil without a sense of what true Love is. Nor could we define what is good and what is evil pertaining to how we treat one another, or even care whether or not we care how we affect each others lives. Love is what is good, and what is evil is not what Love would desire. Finally, if God exists as Creator, then the only reason we can tell what is moral and immoral is our God given Love. Hence if God exists, True Love is Godliness. Thanks be to God that He should allow us to experience the Light of His Spirit.

Absolutely, demonstrably false.
You need to take Anthropology 101.



Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-07-2013, 05:06 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 10:40 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 08:25 AM)childeye Wrote:  I adamantly disagree. There is indeed Love in this universe. Ironically, the video you provide is proof of this.

What Sam Harris provided was the common and basic Argument From Evil. He argued that, every time a child is kidnapped and raped, God is standing right there observing and able to intervene but doesn't. The only way to make this situation into God "loving" that child is to completely redefine "love". There are ways to reconcile this (the standard argument is that God cares but doesn't want to interfere with free will), but the counterargument is not found in Sam Harris' argument itself, "ironically" or not.

I agree with the above comments -- I'm pretty sure that you didn't watch the video. I can guess why; even Dr. Craig was uncomfortable with the subject matter (as seen in his body language when the camera switches to him), because even people who can explain the coexistence of God and evil don't *like* the fact that God can, in their worldview, coexist with evil. You, just like us, would do away with such evil if given the power to do it.

Perhaps there's also something to draw from this short statement of yours -- your "adamant" disagreement. No matter what case can be made against your belief in God, you won't change your mind because you absolutely refuse to under any condition. Why do you feel that it would be fair for any of us to change our minds, given your personal refusal?
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I would first like to answer the question you pose at the end. The reason I am adamant is because I believe Love is good and not evil. It is therefore beyond my comprehension that an evil person could create such a wonderful and beautiful Spirit. It would be like saying ignorance conceived knowledge or death conceived life or nothing conceived something. These binary terms are not equal. Therefore I see what I view as corruption of what was once pure and I ponder how and why. I did watch the video.

I appreciate your statement that I would do away with evil if given the power to do it. I equally appreciate your statement about God coexisting with evil being problematic for a loving god to exist from the worldview. These are valid sentiments. However, in my view and knowing what I know, what we are seeing as coexistence of God and evil, is actually corruption taking it's course. Why does God not stop it? Because in the end evil will destroy evil and what is not evil will be refined. Moreover, our worldview is from a place in time and space which words describe a temporal place of existence. This means to me that when we ask why doesn't God put an end to evil, we are missing the likely probability that God is doing exactly that in the course of all fleshy or temporal existence. To a being outside of time, it would appear as only a moment, while to us who are in time, it is our combined lifetimes. Scripture is full of nuances implying exactly that. We are not here to experience life, but to experience death so that we may know how to value life.
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10-07-2013, 05:34 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 04:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 03:33 PM)childeye Wrote:  The fact is, we would not even surmise what is good or evil without a sense of what true Love is. Nor could we define what is good and what is evil pertaining to how we treat one another, or even care whether or not we care how we affect each others lives. Love is what is good, and what is evil is not what Love would desire. Finally, if God exists as Creator, then the only reason we can tell what is moral and immoral is our God given Love. Hence if God exists, True Love is Godliness. Thanks be to God that He should allow us to experience the Light of His Spirit.

Absolutely, demonstrably false.
You need to take Anthropology 101.


Okay, I watched the video. I'm not sure what you were hoping I would get out of it. I already knew all of this. In my view it only backs up scripture wherein it is said that sin is inherited and passed down through generations. It doesn't change the fact that Love is our goodness nor does it disprove the existence of a Creator. So what is your point?
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10-07-2013, 05:41 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 05:34 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 04:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Absolutely, demonstrably false.
You need to take Anthropology 101.


Okay, I watched the video. I'm not sure what you were hoping I would get out of it. I already knew all of this. In my view it only backs up scripture wherein it is said that sin is inherited and passed down through generations. It doesn't change the fact that Love is our goodness nor does it disprove the existence of a Creator. So what is your point?

Then you lack the basic education to even know what the concepts presented are, and are the proof of confirmation bias, yet again.

There is no mechanism for "sin' to be "passed down". "Sin" in an ancient human metaphor for what is unacceptable;e, and unfortunate. Too bad you live in the ancient past. Your concept of what is "good" and what "love" is, is 100 % a learned mental habit/phenomenon, and culturally relative. Which is why you need to take a course in Anthropology.
So you are saying that "our goodness" = "love" = "gods" ?
Then why even make the connections ?
Your god is simply a superfluous term in a redundant tautology.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-07-2013, 05:46 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
Childeye, I'm going to ask a set of questions to see a furthered explanation on your response to Starcrash. It will take a few replies back and forth but I think we can do this.

Okay, first question. It's a simple yes or no answer, but if you want to add anything to the answer afterwards, that's cool.

Quote:I appreciate your statement that I would do away with evil if given the power to do it.

Yes or no, would you do away with evil if you had the power to?

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10-07-2013, 05:50 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 04:39 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 04:03 PM)childeye Wrote:  You make a good point. If I were you, I imagine I would say the same thing. However it is a sound reasoning that Love is a person's moral center and transcends life in many ways. People are made willing to sacrifice themselves for others because of Love. I see no greater power that is good.

Okay.

Premise: love is the foundation of morality.
Corollary: people are willing to sacrifice themselves for their moral beliefs (ie love).
Conclusion A: this is a good thing.
Conclusion B: therefore God.

Nope, still insane troll logic.
I believe you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Perhaps you should first understand that to me God is Spirit. So when I cry at a sad movie or when I help someone else, this is the Spirit that moves me. God is Love and Love is not a moral belief or a religion or a superstition. Love is a real Spirit we all experience, hence scripture says God is the Eternal Spirit of Love. Therefore, I have never said that people are willing to sacrifice themselves for their moral beliefs, even though that does occur in the world. I am saying that Love causes a person to will to sacrifice themselves for others. The term "God" is just a word pertaining to the Highest moral authority. Nonetheless, God resides in each man who knows Love, even because He is Spirit.
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10-07-2013, 06:19 PM
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 05:50 PM)childeye Wrote:  I believe you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

Okay.

(10-07-2013 05:50 PM)childeye Wrote:  Perhaps you should first understand that to me God is Spirit.

Okay.

(10-07-2013 05:50 PM)childeye Wrote:  So when I cry at a sad movie or when I help someone else, this is the Spirit that moves me.

Okay. You are aware of the existence of antisocial personality disorder, right? Such feelings (whatever their attribution) are not universal.

(10-07-2013 05:50 PM)childeye Wrote:  God is Love and Love is not a moral belief or a religion or a superstition. Love is a real Spirit we all experience...

Okay. See above.

(10-07-2013 05:50 PM)childeye Wrote:  ... hence scripture ...

Whoa there. Back it on up. Scripture?

Feelings don't write scripture. What scripture (and what is scripture)?

(10-07-2013 05:50 PM)childeye Wrote:  says God is the Eternal Spirit of Love.

I am not aware of any well-known scripture that says that. Neither Christian, nor Muslim, nor Jewish, nor Hindu, nor Buddhist, nor Shinto, nor nothing. It's, at best, a statement firmly in the realm of shallow new age beliefs.

(10-07-2013 05:50 PM)childeye Wrote:  Therefore, I have never said that people are willing to sacrifice themselves for their moral beliefs, even though that does occur in the world. I am saying that Love causes a person to will to sacrifice themselves for others.

In which case you make even less sense, because you haven't even presented a cogent definition of love. 'Love' doesn't cause things. Love is a collection of biochemical processes occurring in human beings which create a unique type of subjective experience. It may indeed be among the reasons one performs certain acts, up to and including self-sacrifice.

(10-07-2013 05:50 PM)childeye Wrote:  The term "God" is just a word pertaining to the Highest moral authority. Nonetheless, God resides in each man who knows Love, even because He is Spirit.

Allowing, for the sake of argument, that there is a singular and universal morality - so what?

What are the consequences of this belief? People experience and react to their own feelings regardless.

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10-07-2013, 06:30 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2013 03:41 AM by Filox.)
RE: God is love? Not in this Universe.
(10-07-2013 05:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 05:34 PM)childeye Wrote:  Okay, I watched the video. I'm not sure what you were hoping I would get out of it. I already knew all of this. In my view it only backs up scripture wherein it is said that sin is inherited and passed down through generations. It doesn't change the fact that Love is our goodness nor does it disprove the existence of a Creator. So what is your point?

Then you lack the basic education to even know what the concepts presented are, and are the proof of confirmation bias, yet again.
I don't deny I have confirmation bias since I believe Love is good and real.

Bucky Ball Wrote:There is no mechanism for "sin' to be "passed down".
Then you disagree with your own presented video wherein it is said that psychopathy can be genetically traced.
Bucky Ball Wrote:"Sin" in an ancient human metaphor for what is unacceptable;e, and unfortunate.
Well there you have it, psychopathy is indeed unacceptable and unfortunate to inherit.

Bucky Ball Wrote:Your concept of what is "good" and what "love" is, is 100 % a learned mental habit/phenomenon, and culturally relative.
So is yours, so what?

Bucky Ball Wrote:Which is why you need to take a course in Anthropology.
To learn what? That Love is learned? Jesus already said the same when he said sin dwells in men because of ignorance of the Truth. Amazing what one lie counted as truth can do.
Bucky Ball Wrote:So you are saying that "our goodness" = "love" = "gods" ?
You have it backwards. The creation was formed from a singularity, there is only one True God in all mankind and many false images that are corrupt in their concept. Therefore God=Love=our goodness
Then why even make the connections ?
Bucky Ball Wrote:Your god is simply a superfluous term in a redundant tautology.
As I said, He's not my God, as in my invention. Since the creation comes from a singularity, He'd be everyone's God whether we recognized it or not. Nor does "God is Love" count as a redundant tautology to people who claim God doesn't exist.
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