God is moral in all cases
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07-10-2013, 02:53 AM
RE: God is moral in all cases
Ahh, so morality must come from God or must be entirely relative. There can be no agreed standards. If morality doesn't come from God then I can't judge your morality, and you can't judge mine. If two judges disagree, then there can be no resolution. There is no way to judge the judges because all judges are equal.

It's not like we could lay down some kind of law of the land based on common agreement, or some kind of international agreement on human rights. Those are clearly impossible, and even if they could be established and applied in a way that would suit everyone - therefore would be completely baseless and unenforceable.

This is always the theist pseudo-philosophical stance: If a thing is not absolutely true, it isn't true. If a thing isn't infinitely good, it isn't good. If two things are to be compared, and neither is infinitely better than the other then we can't distinguish between the value of these things.

This constant confusion between "good" and "infinitely good". This constant rejection of finite qualities. Finite qualities can be compared to each other, heywood. We can as a society have a reasonable argument about the pros and cons of treating a particular case or a particular class of cases one way or another. We won't get 100% agreement in any case. We won't get rough agreement that covers every case. We can roughly agree on most cases in a way that fairly compares the finite pros and cons associated with the case. We can use our rationality to decide what is right and what is wrong in most cases.

What happens then when we take this developed morality, this evolved ruleset and apply it to assess biblical morality? We find that biblical morality is out of step. Not only out of step, but out of step in a way that shows clearly inferior moral sense and clearly inferior moral reasoning to that of conventional society.

The thing is, there is no religious morality. There is no morality that comes from God. All morality is secular. All of it. So when we compare today's morality to Biblical morality the morality isn't a comparison between that of man and that of an omnibenovlent God. It's a comparison between a modern morality and an ancient one. It's a comparison between a morality that has learned from history and one that is several thousand years of history worse off. It shows. After all the philosophising in the world any reasonable person is going to reach a point in reading the actions and edicts of the Bible-god and understand that their own morality is better than that of the anonymous author. To deny that to yourself is to reject and displace your own morality. It is to reject a defensible morality in favour of an indefensible one. Divine command theory is just a fancy way of averting your eyes from what is going on in those pages. It's a conclusion in search of a justification. It ignores reality.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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07-10-2013, 03:06 AM
RE: God is moral in all cases
(07-10-2013 02:02 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-10-2013 01:52 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Mind if your daughter gets raped then? Its ok... I'm sure the rapist will pay you some silver and marry her... then she can blow him every night till she dies.

Confused

I wonder how many agree with that morality?

It is not unknown for a man to kill his daughter because she was promiscuous. Now I am sure you would agree with me that such a behavior is immoral. But the man who commits that "Honor" killing doesn't agree with us. If men can disagree about whether it is right or wrong to kill ones daughter, then it is conceivable that some men will sympathize with their daughters rapists and not find the rape immoral.

Morality is a judgment and when there are judges there is always the potential for disagreement. When a disagreement arises you should not be surprised. You should not be surprised that God's morality isn't exactly like yours...in fact you should kinda expect it.

See you are both making the classic liberal mistake of thinking of women as people. Once you realise they are mere chattel like a goat or an ox then you realise that the reason the rape is immoral is because it damaged the property value. Thus was a rape a crime against the father (and the girl should have been screaming louder in any case, it's really her fault) since it diminished the trade value of his livestock.

It's thinking like that that really lets you see into the mind of the authors of the bible. Hobo

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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07-10-2013, 05:21 AM
RE: God is moral in all cases
(07-10-2013 12:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  When speaking about the morality of something, one is making a distinction between right and wrong....or good and bad behavior. In order to make that distinction there must be a judge. You can be a judge, and God can be a judge. Anytime there is more than one judge, the possibility exists that those judges will not be in total agreement. It shouldn't be a surprise to you or anyone that God might judge an act as moral that you might judge immoral...or vise versa.
Who knows the mind of god? That will always be up to interpretation based on a book. We just simply can't trust it. Faith is not enough. Yes, their will be more judges. Government, well at least secular governments make laws on what is acceptable. I wouldn't say that its "moral" in all cases maybe just guidelines that are enforced and the people who are govern can change and refine them. Morals can be agreed upon by a vast majority of people but it is always up to people to choose what they think is moral in their private lives.
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