God is not a religion, religion is man made.
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16-06-2014, 02:40 AM
RE: God is not a religion, religion is man made.
(16-06-2014 02:28 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(16-06-2014 02:12 AM)childeye Wrote:  I'm not suggesting I can prove something is eternal. I'm simply saying it is more probable than something coming out of nothing.

You can say that it's more probable than something coming from nothing, sure. That doesn't make it true. If you want to convince us (or anyone), *justify* how you can say this. That's where the 'overcomplication' comes in.
Here is my equation, 0+0=0.
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16-06-2014, 02:43 AM
RE: God is not a religion, religion is man made.
(16-06-2014 02:40 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(16-06-2014 02:28 AM)morondog Wrote:  You can say that it's more probable than something coming from nothing, sure. That doesn't make it true. If you want to convince us (or anyone), *justify* how you can say this. That's where the 'overcomplication' comes in.
Here is my equation, 0+0=0.

Oh, so you're just a troll. Carry on.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-06-2014, 02:43 AM
RE: God is not a religion, religion is man made.
(16-06-2014 02:40 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(16-06-2014 02:28 AM)morondog Wrote:  You can say that it's more probable than something coming from nothing, sure. That doesn't make it true. If you want to convince us (or anyone), *justify* how you can say this. That's where the 'overcomplication' comes in.
Here is my equation, 0+0=0.

That is silly. In your analogy God could not be a number. That would be like saying 0 + fish = universe, where fish can be literally anything you like so long as it is not a number and not zero.
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16-06-2014, 02:45 AM
RE: God is not a religion, religion is man made.
(16-06-2014 02:29 AM)childeye Wrote:  0+0=0.

3 - 3 = 0 as well. So does 1000000 - 1000000. What's your point?

(16-06-2014 02:29 AM)childeye Wrote:  This doesn't even make sense to me. How can I analyze which "everything" that came from nothing when everything never came from nothing and everything includes every which everything? You can't analyze something eternal from a temporal existence.

So you can't analyze it, you can't find it, you have nothing to compare it to, and you have somehow concluded that the odds of it existing are higher than it not existing. Amazing. Do you have other psychic powers? What number am I thinking of?

(16-06-2014 02:29 AM)childeye Wrote:  Of course there's no such thing as nothing by definition. It doesn't exist. That is my point. I'm not interested in what appears from nowhere since it might have come from somewhere.

Infinity doesn't exist either, by definition. It's not a real, tangible thing; it's a concept in mathematics.
If it appears from nowhere, how could it have come from somewhere? Don't you know what "nowhere" and "somewhere" mean? Confused

(16-06-2014 02:29 AM)childeye Wrote:  I wouldn't believe any scientist who said they know where the universe came from.

Then why do you pretend that scientists say that the Universe came from nothing? Are you a liar? Or just keen on strawmen?

(16-06-2014 02:29 AM)childeye Wrote:  Already read that in the bible. Please pardon the semantics.

Really? See, I read the Bible as well. It doesn't say the Universe came from nothing. It does, in fact, say the Universe came from YHWH. But where did YHWH come from? Oh, he's just "eternal". Why can't the Universe be eternal? I mean, if you accept that eternity cannot exist, like I said a few paragraphs above, you will have accepted that the Universe cannot be eternal, but you will have also accepted that your god cannot be eternal either. If you stick to your idea that eternity can exist, then your god can too... but then you'd be falling into "Special pleading", since you reject the notion that the Universe can be eternal too. You can't win this.
Now I'll wait for you to try to weasel your way out of these arguments, like I know you theists always try to.

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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16-06-2014, 02:52 AM
RE: God is not a religion, religion is man made.
(16-06-2014 02:12 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(16-06-2014 01:44 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  False equivocation for starters.

Your first idea, that something 'eternal' is more probable than something that is not is, for all intents and purposes a crap-shoot. We simply do not know enough to make that guess as it applies towards 'everything', so even our best guesses would contain margins of error so large as to be meaningless.

You are trying to equate 'something' that is 'eternal' with your 'god' concept. Is that all your god is? Because 'god' represents a hell of a lot more to the vast majority of people on this planet than just a single attribute. 'Eternal' is an attribute often attributed to some gods, but it's hardly the only one. Trying to conflate the two is a false equivocation. Eternalness might be a attribute assigned to various god-concepts, but it's never been demonstrated, nor have any of the aforementioned gods. Something might be eternal, the universe itself might be eternal, but that still doesn't get you to an 'eternal god' unless you are a Pantheist/Panentheist and you assume the universe is god and eternal (once again, both assumptions).

Something might be eternal, but we don't know enough to make a sound probability judgement. Even if something is eternal, Occam's Razor would still strip it of everything traditionally attributed to any god-concept, leaving you with nothing but just the assumption of 'eternalness'.

TL;DR version.

Eternalness is an assumption, and we know too little to make a sound probability judgement. Occam's Razors would strip even that assumption of all other 'god' characteristics (i.e. needless assumptions). That which can be posited without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Lacking any evidence in support of an eternal god-concept, it is a needless assumption, and thus less likely (all things considered) according to Occam's Razor. Unless you are using 'god' as a synonym explicitly for just 'eternal', in which case, why call it god?
You complicate things too much. I'm not suggesting I can prove something is eternal. I'm simply saying it is more probable than something coming out of nothing.

Okay, here is the Dumbass Version, just for you.

You don't know enough to make a probability judgement there, all you can do is make an assumption. If you are making assumptions, then your assumption-supported conclusion is less probably than another conclusion that requires less assumptions. For fuck's sake...

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16-06-2014, 02:55 AM
RE: God is not a religion, religion is man made.
(16-06-2014 02:43 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(16-06-2014 02:40 AM)childeye Wrote:  Here is my equation, 0+0=0.

That is silly. In your analogy God could not be a number. That would be like saying 0 + fish = universe, where fish can be literally anything you like so long as it is not a number and not zero.

To break away from troll-baiting for a bit the total sum of energy in the universe may be in fact 0 and that solves the problem of something from nothing. If the net charge of the universe = 0 then everything is just a mass/energy equation which every school child knows is possible. Matter sliding from energy to mass and back again is a known phenomenon and is entirely explicable no angry war gods necessary.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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16-06-2014, 03:05 AM
RE: God is not a religion, religion is man made.
(16-06-2014 02:55 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  To break away from troll-baiting for a bit the total sum of energy in the universe may be in fact 0 and that solves the problem of something from nothing. If the net charge of the universe = 0 then everything is just a mass/energy equation which every school child knows is possible. Matter sliding from energy to mass and back again is a known phenomenon and is entirely explicable no angry war gods necessary.

That's what I said, only not so eloquently and descriptively.

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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16-06-2014, 03:30 AM
RE: God is not a religion, religion is man made.
(16-06-2014 02:45 AM)One Above All Wrote:  3 - 3 = 0 as well. So does 1000000 - 1000000. What's your point?

Yes but 3+3=6 while 0+0=0. In both of your equations nothing came out of something. They don't apply. My point is I can't get something out of nothing. How hard can this be to understand?

(16-06-2014 02:29 AM)childeye Wrote:  This doesn't even make sense to me. How can I analyze which "everything" that came from nothing when everything never came from nothing and everything includes every which everything? You can't analyze something eternal from a temporal existence.

Quote:So you can't analyze it, you can't find it, you have nothing to compare it to, and you have somehow concluded that the odds of it existing are higher than it not existing. Amazing. Do you have other psychic powers? What number am I thinking of?
Of course it is impossible to prove what is eternal from a temporal existence. That is just a fact. No psychic power is necessary to know that.

(16-06-2014 02:29 AM)childeye Wrote:  Of course there's no such thing as nothing by definition. It doesn't exist. That is my point. I'm not interested in what appears from nowhere since it might have come from somewhere.

Quote:Infinity doesn't exist either, by definition. It's not a real, tangible thing; it's a concept in mathematics.
If it appears from nowhere, how could it have come from somewhere? Don't you know what "nowhere" and "somewhere" mean? Confused
In my humble view infinity does not appear out of nowhere. It appears out of everywhere. Omnipresence.

(16-06-2014 02:29 AM)childeye Wrote:  I wouldn't believe any scientist who said they know where the universe came from.

Quote:Then why do you pretend that scientists say that the Universe came from nothing? Are you a liar? Or just keen on strawmen?
When did I pretend scientists said the universe came from nothing? Respectfully you are mistaken.

(16-06-2014 02:29 AM)childeye Wrote:  Already read that in the bible. Please pardon the semantics.

Quote:Really? See, I read the Bible as well. It doesn't say the Universe came from nothing. It does, in fact, say the Universe came from YHWH. But where did YHWH come from? Oh, he's just "eternal". Why can't the Universe be eternal? I mean, if you accept that eternity cannot exist, like I said a few paragraphs above, you will have accepted that the Universe cannot be eternal, but you will have also accepted that your god cannot be eternal either. If you stick to your idea that eternity can exist, then your god can too... but then you'd be falling into "Special pleading", since you reject the notion that the Universe can be eternal too. You can't win this.
Now I'll wait for you to try to weasel your way out of these arguments, like I know you theists always try to.

According to scripture God created through the Word. Now you might say the Word is something not nothing which is why I said please pardon the semantics. Respectfully, you are mistaken, I never said the universe can't be eternal in some sense of the word since His Word is eternal.
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16-06-2014, 03:42 AM
RE: God is not a religion, religion is man made.
(16-06-2014 02:52 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(16-06-2014 02:12 AM)childeye Wrote:  You complicate things too much. I'm not suggesting I can prove something is eternal. I'm simply saying it is more probable than something coming out of nothing.

Okay, here is the Dumbass Version, just for you.

You don't know enough to make a probability judgement there, all you can do is make an assumption. If you are making assumptions, then your assumption-supported conclusion is less probably than another conclusion that requires less assumptions. For fuck's sake...
Thank you for the dumbass version. But I am positive that 0+0=0 and 0-0=0.
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16-06-2014, 03:48 AM
RE: God is not a religion, religion is man made.
(16-06-2014 02:43 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(16-06-2014 02:40 AM)childeye Wrote:  Here is my equation, 0+0=0.

That is silly. In your analogy God could not be a number. That would be like saying 0 + fish = universe, where fish can be literally anything you like so long as it is not a number and not zero.
I don't see it that way. Infinity would be analogous to God.
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