God is not logically possible
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31-08-2012, 04:39 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2012 12:02 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: God is not logically possible
It's a waste of time to argue the existence of god. The argument presumes an already extant, (pre-existent) structure, or concurrent structure, of existence, vs nonexistence. (Existence has no property which does not require spacetime.Every property of intelligent existence require time ... thinking, loving, moving, acting, creating..). THAT structure, (existence/nonexistence) had to, at least concurrently, be in place, or come into place, in the universe, if god exists, ((as it presumes it's opposite, (nonexistence)), as a property also, (in, or of the structure). Existence is (a) "something" or property. one has, but is not the thing, itself. If I exist, I have existence, I am not existence, itself. That means it has to be a property of reality, or what god "possesses". If god possesses existence, as a property of god, it's not the god itself. It's a descriptor of the god. There are two choices. God IS existence, or god created existence, and possesses it. If god IS "existence", then we are all gods, as I exist. I'm not a god. The opposites have to exist already, and god could not be the creator of that structure, if he is a part of it. The already extant structure had to come from somewhere. The "nihilo", in "ex-nihilo" presumes a structure already in place. One cannot be subject to a system, and be it's creator, (being/nothingnesss, positive/negative, plus/minus, existence/nonexistence etc.)

Either "existence" itself, (in their world), is non-contingent, (and thus god IS existence itself), OR it's not, and the property, (existence as a contingent being), had to come into existence, as a result of god. That means god causes his own contingent status. That is meaningless. I have existence. If the possession of existence, per se, or sui generis, makes a being non-contingent, then I also am god. If it does not, then god's existence is not the thing that makes god god, and has to be non-contingent.

Herman Gunkel, the famed Biblical scholar noted that, at the beginning of his amazing book on Genesis. If the earth was "without form and void" and "darkness was upon the face of the deep", then where did darkness, chaos, void, and "without" come from ?

God cannot be existence itself, as nonexistence also exists along with existence, and thus something "other " than god, always existed also.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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31-08-2012, 04:47 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
Within the mathematical, scientific, logical premises we encase God----- with the definitions we favour, the definiendum appears impossible.

I think it was Allan Watts who said....'we know God best by not knowing Him"...........
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31-08-2012, 07:54 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
(30-08-2012 11:34 PM)nach_in Wrote:  is this real life?

welcome to agnosticism Egor, you said it in a weird convoluted way, but that's pretty much it Tongue

He states that God exists, thats not agnostism.

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31-08-2012, 08:19 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
(31-08-2012 07:54 PM)Humakt Wrote:  
(30-08-2012 11:34 PM)nach_in Wrote:  is this real life?

welcome to agnosticism Egor, you said it in a weird convoluted way, but that's pretty much it Tongue

He states that God exists, thats not agnostism.

Nah, sounds more like a deist or a pantheist.Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-08-2012, 08:25 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
(31-08-2012 08:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-08-2012 07:54 PM)Humakt Wrote:  He states that God exists, thats not agnostism.

Nah, sounds more like a deist or a pantheist.Drinking Beverage

Im not sure Egor, could articulate eevn to himself is so simplistic a set of terms what he believes, but he does state that God exists and definitvly rules out agnostism.

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31-08-2012, 08:46 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
(31-08-2012 08:25 PM)Humakt Wrote:  
(31-08-2012 08:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nah, sounds more like a deist or a pantheist.Drinking Beverage

Im not sure Egor, could articulate eevn to himself is so simplistic a set of terms what he believes, but he does state that God exists and definitvly rules out agnostism.

Yup, we're singin' from the same hymnal, brother.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-08-2012, 08:56 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
I got involved with him in some debate similar with this before. I'm not sure what he was doing or asking at first but he went on exactly how he feels relates to this:

Basically from his theology that I gathered, he said Christians have God all wrong because God can't create the universe and be in the universe effecting things like divine intervention or babymaking. He seemed to say in order to create the Universe God has to be outside space/time or whatever he considered not in the universe.. but in doing that as he says here, he is not able to effect the world and just created it that's all.

Seems quite Deist as others have said. I still don't know why he was going on about the God creating-not in universe thing. I think it involved the attempted mixing of scientific hypotheses or at least the terminology in the way he took it.

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31-08-2012, 09:00 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
(31-08-2012 03:22 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  ... The thing is, I could be just as intelligent as you, and just as altogether rational ...

Apologies, Ideas, for using a small chunk of your comment to make a general observation and then editing to:

I could be just as intelligent as you, and otherwise just as rational.

But this is something that really intrigues me and applies to all my deist/theist friends and acquaintances (some of whom are more intelligent than me in many ways).
Francis Collins is the example that Hitch always used.

In discussions on the subject, it always seems to boil down to the fact that they simply want it to be true.

The lady who runs our Asia office (now a muslim but raised a christian, fasts at ramadan etc.) simply has a problem with the whole "death" thing and wants there to be an afterlife.
She admits that she defends (sometimes vehemently) her religion not because of the inerrant-word-of-god stuff but because she is defending her "reasoning" for choosing it: bad experience with someone in her christian past; the overwhelming love she feels for her husband; the traditions that come with it (perhaps in the same way that a patriotic person would defend their country).

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31-08-2012, 11:42 PM
 
RE: God is not logically possible
Before reading or responding to any of the comments here, I wish to apologize for not answering sooner. We've had a horrible hurricane and tropical storm and are currenlty living under generator power. Most of the day is filled with doing tasks related to recovery from that. But we're fine. They say that tomorrow it's likely power and water will be restored.

Fortunately, we have a good generator for our house and pleanty of reserve water.

Anyway, now I'm going to read through the replies. Thanks all for taking the time to read my post. Hug

Ed
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31-08-2012, 11:47 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
(31-08-2012 11:42 PM)Egor Wrote:  Before reading or responding to any of the comments here, I wish to apologize for not answering sooner. We've had a horrible hurricane and tropical storm and are currenlty living under generator power. Most of the day is filled with doing tasks related to recovery from that. But we're fine. They say that tomorrow it's likely power and water will be restored.

Fortunately, we have a good generator for our house and pleanty of reserve water.

Anyway, now I'm going to read through the replies. Thanks all for taking the time to read my post. Hug

Ed

I was wondering if that might be the case. Good to know you are ok.

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