God is not logically possible
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31-08-2012, 11:54 PM
 
RE: God is not logically possible
(30-08-2012 11:34 PM)nach_in Wrote:  is this real life?

welcome to agnosticism Egor, you said it in a weird convoluted way, but that's pretty much it Tongue

I suppose so, but I remain convinced that God exists. But I am convinced that God is all that exists—that being said, God is as much a mystery as all the mystery in the universe. I still know that I have experienced precognition. I still know that my life seems to follow a course. I still know that the universe is a created thing. I still see paramecium acting consciously without any nervous system of any sort. So, I’m convinced there is a fundamental consciousness, but that explains nothing. There are things astronomers see in the universe that have no explanation at all—the phenomena is there, but there is no understanding of it.

But God, as he is described in religious systems is not a possible entity.

(30-08-2012 11:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Hey Eeegs,
Ya made it through hurricane ? Thumbsup

Thanks, man.

Quote:And yes, if god was a person, it would have a "personality". That's about as limiting as one can get

Indeed.

(30-08-2012 11:53 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Seriously, why hang on to this thought implanted in your head that there has to be a 'god'.

Because the universe and the world and conscious entities within it cannot exist for no reason at all. That existential reason is the first evidence that God exists.
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01-09-2012, 12:00 AM
RE: God is not logically possible
Considering the sheer amount of thought the average person does in a day it's not surprising that some of what you think about matches up with reality in the future. Combine that with the phenomenon of deja vu, which is hypothesized to be caused by misfiring neurons that give the impression of having experienced or thought of something before when in fact you didn't, and suddenly precognition ceases to be a mystery. The supernatural is not required for coincidence or chemical reactions.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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01-09-2012, 12:06 AM
 
RE: God is not logically possible
(31-08-2012 06:21 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Glad you're dropping the fundamental consciousness thing, that was quite a load of convoluted bologna.

Well, He is the monistic fundamental consciousness, but that’s not saying anything. The monistic fundamental consciousness is just as mysterious as God. All I did was change His name.

Quote:I came to atheism because I never really believed but someone told me I should. I realized after I became a self-identifying atheist that it wasn't so much that I believed god did not exist but that no evidence had ever been presented to suggest one ever need exist. As such, saying that if a god exists then it must be something we can't perceive is still no better than than your fundamental consciousness definition. Either a god exists or it doesn't and the only way to evaluate that is through evidence. As none exists, the most logical approach would be to first assume non-existence.

Sounds like you’re just playing the odds. Besides, as I mentioned above, there is indisputably “something,” but Anselm’s “being greater than which none other can be conceived” is a mystery. The atheist idea that we just exist “because we exist” is simply religious magical thinking. It’s a psychological dodge of the truth.

(31-08-2012 06:51 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  You amaze me more and more with each post, Ed.

Always happy to entertain.

(31-08-2012 07:15 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  My guess is that this is simply the foundation for god is so unknowable, that he is beyond any human proofs of existence and therefore your petty requests for evidence are not applicable.

I hadn’t thought of that, but you have a point. Nevertheless, specifically, the Christian notion of God is not possible. Jesus’ description of God is not possible. But when it comes to Jesus, he tends to say what we need to hear, not what we want to hear

(31-08-2012 07:23 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Egor, sir, I am impressed.

Always happy to impress. As for rep points, I’d save them. I have a tendency to disappoint people.


(31-08-2012 07:28 AM)Seasbury Wrote:  Or is it just a fabricated opinion?

It’s fabricated opinion. Kind of like dark matter, dark energy, the Higgs boson, creation out of nothing, evolution accounting for life as we know it, and atheism.
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01-09-2012, 12:13 AM
 
RE: God is not logically possible
(01-09-2012 12:00 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Considering the sheer amount of thought the average person does in a day it's not surprising that some of what you think about matches up with reality in the future. Combine that with the phenomenon of deja vu, which is hypothesized to be caused by misfiring neurons that give the impression of having experienced or thought of something before when in fact you didn't, and suddenly precognition ceases to be a mystery. The supernatural is not required for coincidence or chemical reactions.

Please read my experiences with precognition:

On the thirteenth of March in 1996, I awoke from a dream. In that dream, I had visited a kindergarten schoolroom with several small children and a woman who was their teacher. I realized that the school was also part of a church; in fact it was supposed to be the rectory of a church. The children and the teacher in the class all gathered around me and seemed very happy to have me visiting them. At some point I said I had to leave, and one child grabbed hold of my leg and begged me to take him with me, but I told him I couldn’t and that I was very sorry. As I was driving away, I looked in my rearview mirror and I noticed a water tower with the name of a town on it, and the name of the town was Sterling.

When I woke up, I remembered the dream clearly, even as I do today, and I didn’t think much of it, especially given that I had lived as a teenager in the town of Sterling, Colorado. I was all set to ignore it until I saw on the news that a massacre of sixteen small kindergarten-age children and their teacher had occurred in the town of Dunblane, Scotland. Dunblane is a town in the council area of Stirling, Scotland, just down the road from the city of Stirling, itself. It is best known for its cathedral church.

When all of this hit me, I cried. However, I must shamefully admit that I didn’t cry for the children, I cried because I was afraid I was losing my mind and couldn’t determine what was real and what was a dream. I told my wife about the dream, and she was amazed as well.
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As a nurse, I work the nightshift (7pm-7am), always have, probably always will so long as I am working as a nurse, but on this particular day in 2006, it was my night off. We were staying in an RV park in Tucson, Arizona while I did a three-month contract nursing job.

I was asleep in bed, and I woke up around 3 P.M. While I slept, I had a dream about a green parrot. I didn’t remember the dream that well, but I remember a bright green parrot that I was taking care of for some reason. When I woke up, I didn’t think anything of it. Though I had never seen it, my grandparents owned a green parrot for a long time until it died sometime before I was born. I figured that was the connection.

Eventually, my wife and I ate, jogged, and got cleaned up. Then we got ready to walk our two dachshunds around the RV park as we always did at that time. We were taking our usual route, but up the street we saw someone else walking their dog. So as to avoid any canine conflicts, we decided to take a side street that we hadn't taken before.

We’re walking up it, and just by chance, I look up into the window of a Class A RV. In the window was a live green parrot looking down at me. I told my wife about the dream, and again, I felt as if this were not a possible real occurrence.

------------------

During that same year, on a contract in Phoenix, Arizona, I had another dream. I dreamt I was watching ultralight airplanes flying around. Ultralights are airplanes meant for one person and they are often a simple motorized version of hang gliders.

At any rate, I got up and got ready for work. I took my motorcycle, and when I got to the top of this one hill overlooking a valley I saw three ultralight aircraft flying around. I had never seen ultralights in this area, nor did I ever see them again after that day while I remained in Phoenix.

Of course, I was astounded to see this manifestation of my dream in reality, but these large events are disturbing to me, and I have not sought them out or tried to increase them. In fact, I don’t like precognitive dreams now, because I’m no longer wowed by them and I find them distressing on a psychological level. A seriously precognitive dream is unsettling and it tends to make one feel psychologically dizzy. That is to say, it makes one question their grip on reality.

--------------

As some of you may know if you’ve been to my Facebook page (which I invite you to friend me), my wife went into the hospital on Tuesday, July 10, 2012. She ended up having a bowel resection related to a twisted colon. The night before, she was fine. We ran, we barbequed, had some beers, and went to bed as normal. In the morning she was in agony in her abdomen. We thought maybe it was trapped gas, but it didn’t go away; so to the ER we went; she was admitted for emergency surgery from there.

The good news is she’s doing fine, and she should be discharged home today or tomorrow.

What’s interesting is that surrounding this incident, I had the fourth major precognition of my life. That night, I dreamt that there was some men trying to get into our house, and they were dangerous. I told my wife to go and get the shotgun, and she did and I started firing through the door that had begun to bulge inward towards us. During the shooting, I accidently shot my wife. The wound went in through her back and out through her lower right abdomen. The exit wound was red and meaty, but she wasn’t bleeding. The next thing I knew she had a dressing on the wound, and she was alright.

I woke up from that dream to hear her moaning in pain. As I said we went to the ER. I told her about the dream on the way to the ER, and I predicted she would have to have surgery as a result of the symbolism in the dream. We have been married during the time of the other precognitions, so it’s something we both know about and talk about.

Ultimately, she had to have emergency surgery, and before they took her in, her abdomen was bulging in the lower right quadrant, exactly where the wound was in the dream, exactly where the twist was.

You can call this a coincidence, but it is the fourth major episode in my life of precognition. There have been dozens of minor episodes.

This does not prove God exists, but it does prove that consciousness is not confined to the emergent properties of an individual neurological system. I couldn’t have known what was going to happen. The knowledge of what was going to happen necessarily came from a mind, and that mind wasn’t something my brain could generate.

-------------------

Frankly, if I have anymore simple neurological firings like the above that make me think I remember something, I'm going to go insane.

But thanks for your opinion.
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01-09-2012, 12:40 AM
 
RE: God is not logically possible
(31-08-2012 07:49 AM)bemore Wrote:  Personal revelations can come at any age.... shows no matter how old we are we are "forever evolving"...... I hope this new thinking brings you some peace Ed Thumbsup

Thanks. Actually, that’s similar to a conclusion I came to today while flipping chicken on the barbeque: The human purpose is to gain a greater understanding of God—not an total understanding, mind you, but a greater understanding. Otherwise, there’s no point in our consciousness. Having said that, I have absolutely zero to offer as a greater understanding. Sometimes He seems to be looking out for me, but then He looked out for Josef Mengele as well, didn’t He?

(31-08-2012 07:56 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  are you conscious?

No, not really. If I were really conscious, I’d be God. I am only conscious enough to realize my blindness. I thought I knew God. I thought I had a relationship with God, but I had a relationship with a god of my own creation.

(31-08-2012 08:23 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Then how do you know that god exists? Consider

Because the idea that we exist for no reason and started from absolute nothingness is absurd. Paramecia appear to have consciousness but no nervous system. I have dreamt things I could have never known would occur. These phenomena keep me suspecting there is a God—but that’s all I can say. Certainly this is not a being that is a person or can be worshiped or that can actually love us individually.

For instance, very opportune things happened with us before this hurricane that has made what for some is great suffering into a minor inconvenience. When our house was set, we had it set up higher than usual 18 months ago, so we didn’t flood. I fixed our generator a week prior. Our AC was down a couple of months ago, so we bought a couple of window units that are sufficient for our entire mobile home (a 16 x80)—our generator runs those AC units and the entire house. And even the site we selected when we moved in here is higher than all the rest, and then a bunch of minor things (like the killing of a big moccasin with a head shot which I described in another post). It would appear God is taking care of us. That God knew this would happen and led us in the right paths.
Or was I just tapping into the consciousness of God—like with the precognition: no love required?

(31-08-2012 09:07 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I disagree. God, according to the concept put forth by some religions, is omnipotent. Therefore God can do anything including being a person if he so chooses. A more accurate statement would be God doesn't have to be any kind of person because the have part would be too limiting for this to be God. By your reasoning, you are limiting God to being a non-person.
That would be God presenting Himself as an illusion, like a burning bush. Omnipotent only means the capability of doing all that is possible to do—it shouldn’t lead one to magical thinking. God can’t stop being God by becoming a person. In fact, omniscience is not what we think either, because there is at least one thing God does not have any insight into, and that is how or why he exists. In fact, it is quite possible that God is not even self-aware.

(31-08-2012 12:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't believe in God exactly as I don't believe in faeries, homeopathy, ley lines, or chakras. No evidence.

You don’t get it, Chas. You can’t not believe in God until you define God, and that’s not possible. Oh, you can say you don’t believe in the gods espoused by the religions of the world—in that I agree with you. But you can’t justify atheism any more than you can justify Branch Davidianism--or Charlie Mansonism.



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01-09-2012, 12:57 AM
 
RE: God is not logically possible
(31-08-2012 07:54 PM)Humakt Wrote:  He states that God exists, thats not agnostism.

That’s correct, Humakt. I know God exists—I just don’t know what God is. I know God exists, because I know the universe has not always existed and nothing comes from non-existence, ever. I know that because it’s absurd to think it could. I also know God exists because I have had dramatic experiences of precognition and was fortunate enough to make an observation of evident consciousness in paramecia, which have no nervous system.
But none of that tells me anything about God—only that there is a “God.” Rather than follow any religion at all, I might as well just assume God is like me. I mean, why assume He’s like anything else? And yet, contrary to the opinions of everyone who has ever met me, I am not that egotistical.

(31-08-2012 08:25 PM)Humakt Wrote:  Nah, sounds more like a deist or a pantheist.Drinking Beverage
Monist, actually. But I know that monism is a copout. What else can I do?

Quote: Im not sure Egor, could articulate eevn to himself is so simplistic a set of terms what he believes, but he does state that God exists and definitvly rules out agnostism.
Horribly spelled, but well put.

(31-08-2012 08:56 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I got involved with him in some debate similar with this before.

Okay, but do you have to make it sound like we met in a San Francisco bathhouse?



Quote:I'm not sure what he was doing or asking at first but he went on exactly how he feels relates to this:

Basically from his theology that I gathered, he said Christians have God all wrong because God can't create the universe and be in the universe effecting things like divine intervention or babymaking. He seemed to say in order to create the Universe God has to be outside space/time or whatever he considered not in the universe.. but in doing that as he says here, he is not able to effect the world and just created it that's all.

I never said that. I’ve never believed that. If I did say it, I take it back. I’m not a deist. But I have said a lot of things and it can be pretty hard to figure out where I’m coming from, especially as I’m trying to sort it out myself.
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01-09-2012, 01:00 AM
 
RE: God is not logically possible
(31-08-2012 11:47 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I was wondering if that might be the case. Good to know you are ok.

Thanks, DLJ. Blush
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01-09-2012, 02:12 AM
RE: God is not logically possible
(31-08-2012 03:48 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I asked for sources to point out that the constant nagging you do to Theists should be the standard in your direction as well.
Agreed.

(31-08-2012 03:48 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  But when it comes to to Omnipotence Paradox, there are only so many "sources" that can be provided.
Like anyone else, I gave an argument showing a perspective from logic concerning the paradox, and it was Philosophical in nature. Normally, a person would just come back with an argument to show fallacy in what I'm arguing, but instead your first response was that you wanted the source.
After that, you basically just told me I was wrong about the definitions.
I think it was Chas that was explaining that it was basically a word game that may never end basically.
Perhaps it's just a lost cause when it comes to that paradox, and that's fine.
If you want to debate about the omnipotence paradox, take it to the appropriate thread.

(31-08-2012 03:48 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I don't think you refuted the argument. You only attempted to refute it..
See above.

(31-08-2012 03:48 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(31-08-2012 02:04 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Third of all, how would you know anything about my opinion about the post you quoted at the beginning of your reply?

I'm not sure what you mean here.
I was referring to this statement of yours:

(31-08-2012 01:52 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I am severely inclined to believe that Vosur either disagrees wholeheartedly with this statement, or is simply so biased against the Theistic worldview that he doesn't care to draw accurate skepticism of all things, just things from Theists.

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01-09-2012, 06:00 AM
RE: God is not logically possible
(01-09-2012 12:57 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(31-08-2012 07:54 PM)Humakt Wrote:  He states that God exists, thats not agnostism.

That’s correct, Humakt. I know God exists—I just don’t know what God is. I know God exists, because I know the universe has not always existed and nothing comes from non-existence, ever. I know that because it’s absurd to think it could. I also know God exists because I have had dramatic experiences of precognition and was fortunate enough to make an observation of evident consciousness in paramecia, which have no nervous system.
But none of that tells me anything about God—only that there is a “God.” Rather than follow any religion at all, I might as well just assume God is like me. I mean, why assume He’s like anything else? And yet, contrary to the opinions of everyone who has ever met me, I am not that egotistical.

(31-08-2012 08:25 PM)Humakt Wrote:  Nah, sounds more like a deist or a pantheist.Drinking Beverage
Monist, actually. But I know that monism is a copout. What else can I do?

Quote: Im not sure Egor, could articulate eevn to himself is so simplistic a set of terms what he believes, but he does state that God exists and definitvly rules out agnostism.
Horribly spelled, but well put.

Guess I'll somewhat correct myself, your agnostic as to the nature of god except that you "know" he exists and is singular. This you infer or intuite, from the existence of the universe, alhough I dont get how you can have problems with the universe being created from "nothing" or having had a beginning, but accept that a god having what I must assume is exactly the same nature is just natural. I wont go as far as you and say the idea is absurd, but I dont see any difference between the existence of a god or a universe, if you find it absurd for the universe to be eternal or start without "cause" I dont really understand how a god who must have formed without "cause" or be eternal seems obvious to you. To me its the same problem.
As to dramatic precognition, evident consciousness in paramecia I have had no such expierances or made no such observations not going to say your wrong or anything, just gonna say I remain highly skeptical of both.
As to your assumption, that God is like you, you say its just a convienant assumption and not an assertion as to the actual nature of god then thats fine, makes good pragmatic sense even to frame it thus. Ive never met you, but I wouldnt call you egotistical, Ive even seen you self depricate, you do hold strong if somewhat fluid convictions. Far from being a critism, I mean that is in your credit as it demonstrates a willingness to modify your beliefs in the face of new data and that you work from an internal model that is self consistent on which you base your views. I certainly dont agree with your conclusions, but that is niether my concern, or need concern you.

As to horribly spelled, but well put. Thanks Im glad my meaning was taken, Im dyslexic spelling is an approximate thing to me, the big words I can spell I can spell because Ive deliberatly learned them through repition everything else is a phonetic approximation.

Lastly, nice to see you back, hope you and yours are in good spirits and good health.

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01-09-2012, 07:09 AM
RE: God is not logically possible
The theist assertion that there is something therefore God is babble. It is the argument from ignorance. I assert that the universe exists there the universe exists. All other possibilities remain in the realm of the imagination until proven otherwise.

So, when you assert that God is not logically possible but still exists and it is apparently obvious, how does your claim differ from any other theist? Pretty sure we just call that faith.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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