God is not logically possible
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01-09-2012, 02:24 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
(30-08-2012 11:22 PM)Egor Wrote:  What that means is that if God exists, He must be so alien to what we think of as a being, that His existence is essentially meaningless to us.

This has been my viewpoint on deities for a long time. It's been kinda shoved aside by my more recent 'mad at religious stuff for being so damned insistent that they're right' phase, though.

Egor Wrote:God exists, but there is no way to understand what God is. If we can understand what God is, then that God isn't God.

'The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao.' A friend introduced me to the Tao Te Ching many years ago and though it's been a while since I read it seriously, I find it to be a solid companion in my life.

"The amazing thing is that every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. ... So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today." -- Lawrence Krauss
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01-09-2012, 03:37 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
(01-09-2012 01:36 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So, are you proposing there is a third (neutral), possibility ?

A reason, many reasons, some reasons, no reason, good reason, bad reason, what ?

The more correct word is "motivation".
There can be no motivation if there is no one motivated. That would imply a creator.

The theist idea "well did this all just come about for no reason", is an Argument from Ignorance, and God of the gaps. You also assume YOU know the reason. What if there is a reason, and you don't know it, (yet) ? You're only interested if it's your reason.

Basically I just don't think it's reasonable to look at the makeup of the history of the Universe and then come to a conclusion that it all just... happened (with no explanation).

The Multiverse Theory is better than "It just happened" or "No reason at all".

Is it alright if I say someone is irrational if they say to me "There is no explanation for the Universe".
To me, that seems like special pleading since the Universe itself is subject to the laws of nature.
If I were to write a book (It would be massive lol) that wrote the entire story of the Universe, going backwards in time, and the purpose or cause of every molecule and then came to the end of the book and said "The Universe - it just happened" You can rightly say that the last part of the book is irrational.

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01-09-2012, 03:53 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2012 04:58 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: God is not logically possible
(01-09-2012 03:37 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Basically I just don't think it's reasonable to look at the makeup of the history of the Universe and then come to a conclusion that it all just... happened (with no explanation).

The Multiverse Theory is better than "It just happened" or "No reason at all".

Is it alright if I say someone is irrational if they say to me "There is no explanation for the Universe".
To me, that seems like special pleading since the Universe itself is subject to the laws of nature.
If I were to write a book (It would be massive lol) that wrote the entire story of the Universe, going backwards in time, and the purpose or cause of every molecule and then came to the end of the book and said "The Universe - it just happened" You can rightly say that the last part of the book is irrational.

So what information, exactly, are you missing that you want ? What do you need explained ? There is nothing we cannot explain. We know how everything we can see and detect, came about. The only pieces missing are the first few fractions of a second. It sounds like you just need some more education. But throw out some stuff. Name 5 things you want explained, that you think you don't have an explanation for.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-09-2012, 04:04 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
(01-09-2012 03:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-09-2012 03:37 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Basically I just don't think it's reasonable to look at the makeup of the history of the Universe and then come to a conclusion that it all just... happened (with no explanation).

The Multiverse Theory is better than "It just happened" or "No reason at all".

Is it alright if I say someone is irrational if they say to me "There is no explanation for the Universe".
To me, that seems like special pleading since the Universe itself is subject to the laws of nature.
If I were to write a book (It would be massive lol) that wrote the entire story of the Universe, going backwards in time, and the purpose or cause of every molecule and then came to the end of the book and said "The Universe - it just happened" You can rightly say that the last part of the book is irrational.

So what information, exactly, are you missing that you want ? What do you need explained ? There is nothing we cannot explain. We know how everything we can see and detect, came about. The only pieces missing are the first few fracions of a second. It sounds like you just need some more education. But throw out some stuff. Name 5 things you want explained, that you think you don't have an explanation for.

I always need more education lol
But as far as what information that is missing, the laws of nature usually apply all the way through to the beginning of the Universe. So after so much education, it's time to start making observations and keeping your options if they stand logical, not throw things out because I don't like it.

Ok, I guess I do have a question; Is there anything within the Universe that does not comply with the Laws of Nature?

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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01-09-2012, 04:08 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
(01-09-2012 04:04 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(01-09-2012 03:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So what information, exactly, are you missing that you want ? What do you need explained ? There is nothing we cannot explain. We know how everything we can see and detect, came about. The only pieces missing are the first few fracions of a second. It sounds like you just need some more education. But throw out some stuff. Name 5 things you want explained, that you think you don't have an explanation for.

I always need more education lol
But as far as what information that is missing, the laws of nature usually apply all the way through to the beginning of the Universe. So after so much education, it's time to start making observations and keeping your options if they stand logical, not throw things out because I don't like it.

Ok, I guess I do have a question; Is there anything within the Universe that does not comply with the Laws of Nature?

Wouldn't that be an oxymoron?
If you mean is there something that our current understanding doesn't explain, then yes. Dark matter, dark energy.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-09-2012, 04:26 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2012 05:03 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: God is not logically possible
(01-09-2012 04:04 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(01-09-2012 03:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So what information, exactly, are you missing that you want ? What do you need explained ? There is nothing we cannot explain. We know how everything we can see and detect, came about. The only pieces missing are the first few fracions of a second. It sounds like you just need some more education. But throw out some stuff. Name 5 things you want explained, that you think you don't have an explanation for.

I always need more education lol
But as far as what information that is missing, the laws of nature usually apply all the way through to the beginning of the Universe. So after so much education, it's time to start making observations and keeping your options if they stand logical, not throw things out because I don't like it.

Ok, I guess I do have a question; Is there anything within the Universe that does not comply with the Laws of Nature?

No, I didn't mean YOU throw out some stuff, dummy, Tongue I meant give me 5 things you want to know about, you think you want more info on.

Well, I can't think of many examples. There is one they're working on, and has perplexed Physicists for a long time. Here it is. We have no reason why this happens.

We know nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. If two "entangled" particles are sent out in opposite directions, where one has to be positive, and one negative, but we don't know which is which, (actually until we look, they are in a super position, and both are either). So if they shoot out 20 miles, and we grab one, and determine it has a positive spin, we know the other one has to be a negative spin. Since it's not in its position until we look, and the other one is "instantaneously" changed, (since they are entangled), somehow the information gets from one to the other, faster than the speed of light. They don't know yet how or why that happens. Einstein called it "spooky action at a distance". It could mean there are other dimensions "right here", which we don't "notice".

There are lots of archaeological mysteries, and paleo-anthropological holes yet to fill in, but there is no reason to think they won't. I'm sure someone will assemble a complex chemical thing which will eventually reproduce, and be seen to be "alive". I suspect a computer, in our lifetimes may be seen as "conscious". We don't know how to go faster than the speed of light right now, but they may figure that out. Certainly some day they will. We don't know if there are other other universes right now. We may soon, if the WMAP data comes back and shows certain "ripples". Almost all the parts of human bodies will have replacement parts grown, very shortly. There is a thing in Physics called Super Symmetry, that's a big mystery, but they'll figure it out. Dark Energy and Dark Matter could be much more complex than just two things, and we don't know what they are, yet. There is no reason to think they won't conform to predictable laws, when they know about them.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-09-2012, 04:36 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
(01-09-2012 04:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  We know nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. If two "entangled" particles are sent out in opposite directions, where one has to be positive, and one negative, but we don't know which is which, (actually until we look, they are in a super position, and both are either). So if they shoot out 20 miles, and we grab one, and determine it has a positive spin, we know the other one has to be a negative spin. Since it's not in its position until we look, and the other one is "instantaneously" changed, (since they are entangled), somehow the information gets from one to the other, faster than the speed of light. They don't know yet how or why that happens. Einstein called it "spooky action at a distance". It could mean there are other dimensions "right here", which we don't "notice".

We don't actually know if this happens. It only happens if you buy the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM. Yes, they're entangled, but it is probabilistic, not superposed.

Note to Copenhagenists:
You do realize that Schrodinger's Cat was Schrodinger's satirical response to the Copenhagen Interpretation.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-09-2012, 07:02 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
Well Egor since it seems you have changed your tone quite a bit since I last engaged you I have two questions I feel you need to be able to answer to keep your view consistent.

1. You assert that the universe has not always existed. This is a huge claim. How do you know the universe has not always existed? I see no reason to believe your claim anymore then I would see a reason to believe the claim the universe has always existed. Neither side seems to be able to present evidence to their case.

2. You also assert that something cannot come from nothing. How do you know what a nothing looks like or acts? I can't say I've ever seen a nothing or had any way of interacting with nothing. So how do you know that something can or cannot come from nothing when we have never encountered the kind of nothing you are speaking of.

What I'm seeing here is an ability to say "I don't know" when it comes to what god is but the inability to say "I don't know" when it comes to the idea of a god itself. That's all Atheism is. Atheism is simply saying "I don't know" and I see no evidence for any gods.

You may also wish to go look up the kalam argument and it's rebuttals you are coming dangerously close to using that argument here.
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01-09-2012, 10:24 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2012 10:33 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: God is not logically possible
(01-09-2012 04:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-09-2012 04:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  We know nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. If two "entangled" particles are sent out in opposite directions, where one has to be positive, and one negative, but we don't know which is which, (actually until we look, they are in a super position, and both are either). So if they shoot out 20 miles, and we grab one, and determine it has a positive spin, we know the other one has to be a negative spin. Since it's not in its position until we look, and the other one is "instantaneously" changed, (since they are entangled), somehow the information gets from one to the other, faster than the speed of light. They don't know yet how or why that happens. Einstein called it "spooky action at a distance". It could mean there are other dimensions "right here", which we don't "notice".

We don't actually know if this happens.

Dudes' at my work have demonstrated it a distance of 13.5 miles, Chas. Spooky superluminal action at a distance has been motherfucking observed.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
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01-09-2012, 11:19 PM
RE: God is not logically possible
(01-09-2012 10:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-09-2012 04:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  We don't actually know if this happens.

Dudes' at my work have demonstrated it a distance of 13.5 miles, Chas. Spooky superluminal action at a distance has been motherfucking observed.

Oooh! I do so love your posts, GM. Shining intelligence to go with those shiny shoes. Heart

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