God is omnipresent?
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14-09-2012, 11:36 AM
RE: God is omnipresent?
(14-09-2012 07:44 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  As this seems to be another cheesy attempt at debunking a characteristic of a God you have yet to even consider the possibility of it's existence, perhaps I should give my $.02 anyway.

How is it cheesy? It is a legitimate question.

(14-09-2012 07:44 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  That Omnipresence is different from Pantheism I think is perhaps an important distinction to make.
His presence is not the same as we would think of presence. We would think of it in a natural/physical location sense, whereas location is not an issue for something outside the natural realm.

Yeah, you are right, there is a difference.

Quote:omnipresent [ˌɒmnɪˈprɛzənt]
adj
(esp of a deity) present in all places at the same time

Pantheism is the belief that God is nature or is the universe. To be omnipresent, one must be able to exist indpendent of the universe. Now, again, nowhere is it specified that God is exclusively "spiritually" or mentally existent at all places. It simply says he is existent in all places.

(14-09-2012 07:44 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  As far as I can think of it (Which is incredibly limited), it could be comparable to a 'mind' that isn't anywhere in the sense that it can be located, but is everywhere in the sense that it cannot be located.
Er... well it makes more sense when I'm thinking about it. But, perhaps you can still get what I'm saying.
The philosophy on this issue is a bit grey for me since I haven't spent much time on it.

So God has a brain?

(14-09-2012 07:44 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  So directly to your question - I do believe that He is present in Hell, but I'm guessing it's a much different issue for Him.

Hm. As seems many of the problems that lay on his shoulders. Get back to me when he explains himself to you.

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14-09-2012, 11:41 AM
RE: God is omnipresent?
Quote:Thus notions of infinite time and infinite space tend to be self contradictory and confusing because space and time, being finite, cannot be extended infinitely. It is only when infinity is attributed to God alone that the concept has precise, plausible, and a consistent meaning.
Space and time are transcended by the infinite God

God is infinite therefore no contradiction.

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14-09-2012, 12:12 PM
RE: God is omnipresent?
(14-09-2012 02:10 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  A simple question for any theist out there. If God is omnipresent, does he exist in hell?

Of course.

But what's really going to bake your noodle is when you consider this:

God is everywhere, including in hell. He knows everything, including every thought in everyone's head and every word we speak, every sound we utter. There are already billions of souls suffering eternal damnation in hell, roasting and burning and writhing and suffering unimaginable agony. And they're all screaming. All of them.

And god hears every one of those screams. Every "sound we utter", including the screams uttered by the suffering souls in hell.

Eventually there will be trillions, quadrillions, googoltiillions of suffering souls if mankind lives long enough, and god will be listening 24/7/eternity to every scream they ever utter, for all of eternity, forever.

Now that's some sick shit.

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15-09-2012, 12:08 AM
RE: God is omnipresent?
Well god will want to be sure we are being punished correctly for things we where preordained to do by him.
It’ll be all that love and forgiveness he has, how do you forgive someone of something you made them do?
Or punish them for that matter…

Odd that the one who has the task of punisher is the one who was against god (enemy of my enemy and all that) and was also the one who reportedly gave us knowledge.
If you where kept ignorant for many years and then someone came and started to teach you things about the world you live in, would you see them as an adversary?
I would imagine those who kept you would see them in that light.

If he created us to be evil, he has no right to punish us.
If he is in hell he has a moral obligation to save us.
If he made us evil, and won’t save us from his punishment for being evil, he has no right to be called god.

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15-09-2012, 01:11 AM
RE: God is omnipresent?
(14-09-2012 07:42 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(14-09-2012 02:10 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  A simple question for any theist out there. If God is omnipresent, does he exist in hell?

Short answer, yes.

Eric Landstrom has a very, very good article on it.

Article here.

***He believes in systematic theology like I do and denies process theology, again, like me***

It's a good answer to the question, though it precludes the idea that Hell is merely distance from God (as the author makes very clear by repeatedly calling it a "lake of fire"). This definition of Hell brings up many more problems, such as God's lack of mercy or pity by giving a disproportionate penalty to unbelievers for one sin or even many sins. This is one reason why many liberal Christians hesitate to say with certainty what constitutes Hell. So long as they could claim "maybe it's just a place without God", they had some wiggle room.

Omnipresence also makes statements such as "when two or more gather in my name, there I am in their midst" just pointless tautologies.

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15-09-2012, 01:17 AM
RE: God is omnipresent?
(14-09-2012 07:44 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  As this seems to be another cheesy attempt at debunking a characteristic of a God you have yet to even consider the possibility of it's existence, perhaps I should give my $.02 anyway.

That Omnipresence is different from Pantheism I think is perhaps an important distinction to make.
His presence is not the same as we would think of presence. We would think of it in a natural/physical location sense, whereas location is not an issue for something outside the natural realm.

Alright, enough with these arguments. This is analogous to the arguments when we claim that God has not returned "soon" as He claimed, and apologists answer with phrases such as "a day to God is as a thousand years".

If God's presence is not what we would think of as "presence", then He's using the wrong word. Does God not understand the ambiguities of our language? Can He not clarify what He means, especially when it seems so simple for apologists to do so in his stead?

It's just like when apologists try to explain, without saying as much directly, that God clearly doesn't understand units of time in the same way that we do. Seriously, this argument assumes that God is an idiot who can't get a grasp of English. I'm sure you don't believe this is true either, so please stop trying to convince us that it is.

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15-09-2012, 01:38 AM
RE: God is omnipresent?
(14-09-2012 10:43 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(14-09-2012 10:26 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  @Logica

He not incapable.

He's already chosen not to. Since His decisions span and originate from infinity, His decision is solidified. A changing of decision would affect His omniscience and omnipotence, so a changing of a decision is a paradox and simply cannot be.

I go into more detail here.

That would violate the "benevolence" clause.

(14-09-2012 10:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Also, I'm not agreeing with everything in the article.

My point in it was for it to describe God's omnipresence even in hell. It wasn't for this guy's theology. I just feel that he describes omnipresence very, very well.

He used a lot of words to answer a "yes" or "no" question.

KC has expressed numerous times he believes God isn't benevolent. That idea isn't really in the bible nor does it come with the big Onmi- ideas.. It just got tagged along later on by theologians when their Christian societies started thinking God ought to be perpetually good.

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15-09-2012, 02:37 AM
RE: God is omnipresent?
(15-09-2012 01:38 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  KC has expressed numerous times he believes God isn't benevolent. That idea isn't really in the bible nor does it come with the big Onmi- ideas.. It just got tagged along later on by theologians when their Christian societies started thinking God ought to be perpetually good.

Then how can he differentiate God from the Devil?

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