"God is outside of time and space"
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28-12-2011, 09:09 AM
RE: "God is outside of time and space"
(28-12-2011 08:26 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I was discussing quantum physics with my brother last night. We were talking about different dimensions. Lower dimensions cannot understand higher dimensions. We can see hypothetical evidence of it, though. A 2D object cannot exist on a 3D world because as soon as it enters into a 3D world it would be come 3D. A 3D object can enter a 2D world, but the 2D world cannot comprehend or even see the 3rd dimension; therefore, according to the world around it, it becomes 2D even though it's actually 3D. Using this same logic we move up dimensions.

Of course, I could be totally whacked out wrong, since this is all speculation by my brother and me.

(28-12-2011 05:32 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Sorry, KC and Sharks, you're going down too for being Lukewarm Christians. Jesus is gonna spew your sorry asses out for being neither hot nor cold.

On a completely unrelated note, I HATE THIS SUNDAY SCHOOL LESSON. It drives me crazy. It's not even what the verse is talking about or the context of the "hot" and "cold".

It's not impossible to understand a higher dimension, just very difficult. There are many helpful articles if you simply google "4th dimension." To me, the easiest way to understand a higher dimension is using metaphors with the relationships of 2D space to 3D, then apply that to 4D. In other words, 2D is to 3D as 3D is to 4D. You can see lots of interesting properties of a 4D space using these analogies. For example, a 2D being's eyesight would be a 1D line, just our eyesight is a 2D plane. Therefore, a 4D being would see in 3D, not just like a 3D movie, but actually seeing all sides of a 3D object at once! Also, just as a 3D being could escape from a 2D box, a 4D being could easily walk out of a locked 3D room.

Distractions aside, I agree saying that something exists outside time and space is ridiculous. How can you define "existence" if not within time and space?

One thing I notice about many apologist arguments is that they love, depending on the argument, to make God completely omnipotent in the "anything is possible" sense or the sort of limited omnipotence that C.S. Lewis talks about in the Problem of Pain, where god can do anything that is not "intrinsically impossible," that is something that creates a logical contradiction if it is done. If I say it is a logical contradiction for something to exist outside of space and time but still interact with it, an apologist will reply that god is "supernatural." If I say that a loving god would not have created a world where suffering exists at all, let alone where it is commonplace, an apologist will tell me, as in C.S. Lewis's The Problem of Pain, "Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you will find that you have excluded life itself." Wait a second! Wasn't god just "supernatural?" Why can't he just use his supernatural powers to overcome our mere logic? Attempting to resolve one logical contradiction only leads to another!
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28-12-2011, 10:08 AM
RE: "God is outside of time and space"
(28-12-2011 08:26 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(28-12-2011 05:32 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Sorry, KC and Sharks, you're going down too for being Lukewarm Christians. Jesus is gonna spew your sorry asses out for being neither hot nor cold.

On a completely unrelated note, I HATE THIS SUNDAY SCHOOL LESSON. It drives me crazy. It's not even what the verse is talking about or the context of the "hot" and "cold".

Well, duh. Of course you hate it. It says you are going to hell.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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28-12-2011, 10:26 AM
RE: "God is outside of time and space"
if god is outside of time and space...does that mean he's....a time lord??

I KNEW IT.

We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.

- Carl Sagan
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28-12-2011, 10:34 AM
RE: "God is outside of time and space"
It's really funny how creationists say that life shows "design", and they point to things like DNA and say that "information has never been observed to arrive naturally" (I'm quoting my little brother here). And yet, despite the fact that we've never observed actions done outside of space and time, they're perfectly willing to accept that it happens. They have to. I used to, and I couldn't explain it - there just wasn't any other way to make sense of a being that "just happened" to be there to create the universe. Or at least we didn't realize that there was another way.

Stephen Hawking said that it just doesn't make sense for time to have a beginning. Creationists have crowed about this for quite some time, but they filled in that gap with God instead of trying to make sense of it. SH did make sense of it - he said that time is an enclosed manifold, a shape without beginning or end like the surface of a sphere. Even the universe didn't have a "beginning", because time doesn't flow in only one direction - it's our observation of time that is unidirectional. Take the personal bias out of making sense of time and you find that time isn't just some unchanging, marching army that came from somewhere and is going somewhere. If there is a creator, he could just as easily come from the future as the past, and I think that makes a lot more sense than this stupid "outside of time and space" idea.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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28-12-2011, 11:36 AM
RE: "God is outside of time and space"
(28-12-2011 03:40 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  [
(28-12-2011 02:31 AM)The_observer Wrote:  On the other hand...
This is a nice theory on what I think is the key to life's big mystery... "The way we perceive, and are obliged to follow, time"

We made time up to make sense out of this shit, ... time is more servant than savior.
Do you mean that, should we not measure time, it should not progress? I doubt that...

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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28-12-2011, 01:48 PM
RE: "God is outside of time and space"
Hey, Buddy.

If there is a God, then God MUST exist beyond time and space. One cannot create the thing they live in.

I spent some time, like years, meditating on the notion of the supernatural. What I realised is that IF there is such a thing as the supernatural, then logically, there must be a subnatural. I then spent some time trying to figure out what that might be. What I came up with was Super Mario Brothers. I mean, any computer program will do, particularly the evolution simulations run by MIT and others, but Super Mario has pretty colours. The programmers design a universe, complete with its own rules, that exists as a subset of the universe the programmers live in. The programmers have control over the rules they set up, they have to. They can let the program run on its own, they can control it, they can tweak rules, they can impose arbitrary decisions, they can go forward or backward in time at will, all of the things that God can do. For me, what this illustrates is what sort of power a creator has over their created universe and it's a proof that the creator could not possibly be Bowser or Toad but that the creator must exist beyond that universe and that they must have control over that universe's rules.

We also know for fact that the influence of time-space is not absolute. Within the event horizon of black holes, math, physics, time, space, all of the rules of the natural universe the common sense view tells us are absolute, break down. We know for fact that time doesn’t exist everywhere because it breaks down inside our own universe. Quantum mechanics also suggests that there are multiple universes where the rules necessarily function differently and that there is “space” between the universes (space being a surrogate word for a concept that does not yet exist in the English language.

There's a fantastic documentary on Netflix called The Nature of Existence. The guy asks very simple questions of like 80 people across as many fields of specialty, from Christian wrestlers, to Dawkins, to Indian Gurus to Irvin Kirshner. A Rabbi said something I thought was really awesome:
Quote:If we define existence as that which God has, because the one thing we can say about God is that he exists, he is, he has a state… he exists in a state of absolute isness, in Hebrew that’s called Yeshut, isness, by in no way shape or form can I define myself relative to those terms. Meaning that’s a level of reality that is completely beyond time, completely beyond space, completely even beyond finite or infinite. God isn’t even infinite, he creates infinite reality and he creates finite reality. He’s beyond both. Which helps solve the problem how…. the philosophers asked how can it be that an infinite God creates finite reality. Judaism doesn’t see a problem whatsoever because God’s not infinite. God’s completely beyond limitation. Infinite reality itself is limited by virtue of the fact that it can’t express itself in a finite way. Finite reality is limited to the extent that it exists within the context of some sort of finite space, finite time. God is beyond both.
-Rabbi Boruch Kaplan

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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28-12-2011, 02:04 PM
RE: "God is outside of time and space"
Just to play with Ghosts videogame analogy a little, I must ask the question...
If it isn't a videogame like universe god created, but a real universe only much smaller than himself such as we essentially do every time we breath then god would have an impact on our lives in a physical sense without actually knowing we were there.

So what I'm saying is, what if god was just a giant to us, living outside of our universe, and he accidentally made us, isn't aware of us, and someday if we travel far enough through space we might catch a glimpse of the larger world he lives in. If he doesn't dust his house any time soon and throw our universe into a garbage bin.




"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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28-12-2011, 02:50 PM
RE: "God is outside of time and space"
Hey, Lucradis.

HUGE points for bringing Kansas into it!

Though watching that video, I find it difficult to beleive that violin Jesus would hang out with Leasure Suit Larry.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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28-12-2011, 03:09 PM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2011 03:15 PM by Malleus.)
RE: "God is outside of time and space"
(28-12-2011 02:04 PM)lucradis Wrote:  Just to play with Ghosts videogame analogy a little, I must ask the question...
If it isn't a videogame like universe god created, but a real universe only much smaller than himself such as we essentially do every time we breath then god would have an impact on our lives in a physical sense without actually knowing we were there.

So what I'm saying is, what if god was just a giant to us, living outside of our universe, and he accidentally made us, isn't aware of us, and someday if we travel far enough through space we might catch a glimpse of the larger world he lives in. If he doesn't dust his house any time soon and throw our universe into a garbage bin.

Actually I have been toying with the universe inside universe inside universe hypothesis for a while. I was imagining that our earth is nothing but a particle orbiting around the nucleus of an atom in a huge universe. We could be part of an atom from a molecule of a substance that's stuck for a while under the fingernail of a kid. Or a drop of water drying extremely slowly (from our point of view) on somebody's skin. When liquids turn into gasses, the distance between the molecules increases... That would maybe justify why our universe seems to be expanding.

In that case, no matter how far we fly, we will always see stars and nothing else. Other atoms orbiting according to some physical law.

Of course, I also imagined that I'm drinking entire galaxies of atoms every time I take a sip of my juice. Maybe some particles in those "galaxies" are also inhabited by beings with reason, maybe even religious beings.

But I never thought about the "giants" as gods. Just like I don't feel like a god if some sentient beings happen to live in a sub-atomic level on one of my eyebrows.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

I would never shake a baby unless the recipe requires it.
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28-12-2011, 03:38 PM
RE: "God is outside of time and space"
I'm a big fan of the universe within universes idea. Like standing between two mirrors. Perhaps it stretches to infinity in both directions, perhaps there's a beginning and an end, or perhaps it's a loop.

One of the critiques of this notion is that say we either were the subset of another universe or that we created a "virtual" universe. Like a simulation. The critique is that we would have to have enough computing power to compute the created universe. Therefore, if they created a new universe, they would necessarily have less computing power than us, just as we have less computing power than our parent universe.

It's a good critique, but I wonder if the idea of algorithms defeats it. The video game Spore is so incredibly expansive because the programmer realised that if he made the game algorithmic rather than computational (my terms likely stink of non-1337 n008ness) that the game could generate a vast universe using a fraction of the computational power. Dan Dennet suggests that evolution is an algorithm. So what if everything is? Math, physics, gravity… Then, in order to create a new universe, we just have to write a really bitching algorithm. Perhaps the theory of everything is actually an equation. Like maybe our entire universe is nothing more than the expression of an algorithmic equation. Trippy.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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