"God is self-existent"
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02-03-2015, 06:13 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(02-03-2015 04:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-03-2015 03:05 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I have continually offered sources, citations, peer reviewed work, as well as apologetics and philosophical statements. You have a confirmatory bias.

You seriously believe you have done that? You haven't - you are seriously delusional.

He's got a lot of proof! In his imagination:

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Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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03-03-2015, 02:23 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
The "proof" I see are by now several dozen threads where I had the last post because I pointed to sources, invited further discussion, built bridges, and was ignored. Like another thread where TTA members seem unwilling to admit that ice is composed of water!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-03-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(31-01-2015 07:49 AM)Learner Wrote:  What is the best way to respond to the theist response to the atheist argument "Who created God?", when the theist says, "Well, nobody created God because God is self-existent!" (As with most, if not all theist arguments, the level of their arguments and responses seems too simplistic and childish and assuming to me, but I want to know the best way to respond to their lame arguments.)

I'm sure someone already answered this, but it bears repeating until it gets through to them:

You cannot argue that someone (God) is self-existent while simultaneously arguing that something (the universe) cannot be. Either self-existence without "cause" is possible or it is not. The universe exists. There is no evidence that God does.

Religion is proof that invisible men can obscure your vision.
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04-03-2015, 01:08 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(03-03-2015 02:34 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  
(31-01-2015 07:49 AM)Learner Wrote:  What is the best way to respond to the theist response to the atheist argument "Who created God?", when the theist says, "Well, nobody created God because God is self-existent!" (As with most, if not all theist arguments, the level of their arguments and responses seems too simplistic and childish and assuming to me, but I want to know the best way to respond to their lame arguments.)

I'm sure someone already answered this, but it bears repeating until it gets through to them:

You cannot argue that someone (God) is self-existent while simultaneously arguing that something (the universe) cannot be. Either self-existence without "cause" is possible or it is not. The universe exists. There is no evidence that God does.

1. Of course you can argue that if God was created as a result of say, the Big Bang. But he pre-exists this universe.

2. Of course you can argue that if God existed in a space or time outside our own. Question of the day--our measuring tools can only see a universe that is approx. 16B light years across in any direction from Earth. Does it go on infinitely, forever? And since it is expanding (just as the Bible says it is) what is it expanding inside of or outside of? And there you have it.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-03-2015, 05:13 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(03-03-2015 02:23 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The "proof" I see are by now several dozen threads where I had the last post because I pointed to sources, invited further discussion, built bridges, and was ignored. Like another thread where TTA members seem unwilling to admit that ice is composed of water!

Just fuck off, you disingenuous twat. Your attempt to conflate ice ages with floods was being dismissed.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-03-2015, 05:29 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(03-03-2015 02:23 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The "proof" I see are by now several dozen threads where I had the last post because I pointed to sources, invited further discussion, built bridges, and was ignored.

What you see as "proof" I attribute to extreme boredom and indifference.

#sigh
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04-03-2015, 05:48 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
Hello again, I'm sorry I seem to have lost the previous thread's links/heading where we were discussing things.

(04-03-2015 01:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Of course you can argue that if God was created as a result of say, the Big Bang. But he pre-exists this universe.

Okay... so the deity (Or possibly deities.) exist beyond the realm of time and space. Which puts them/it... where? In something the human mind can't even come to grips with?

(04-03-2015 01:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. Of course you can argue that if God existed in a space or time outside our own. Question of the day--our measuring tools can only see a universe that is approx. 16B light years across in any direction from Earth.

That's great. So now the deity is 16B odd light years away. How does it interact with us now, here when it's all the way over (And technically in the past?) there? You're kind of saying that a god is faster than the speed of light? Consider

Deities interact with reality.... instantaneously, regardless of distance?

(04-03-2015 01:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Does it go on infinitely, forever?

I'm sure some one with a really good background in Astrophysics will be along to explain who 'big' reality is/might be. Big Grin

(04-03-2015 01:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And since it is expanding (just as the Bible says it is)

Citation please. Smile

(04-03-2015 01:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What is it expanding inside of or outside of?

Ah! I've seen this in another thread. Smile

Our reality is not 'expanding' into 'anything'. There seems to be no 'edge' to our reality. It is just as big as it is and the spaces between everything are getting farther apart. Mind twisting idea to get one's head around, no?

Again, I'm sure some one with a really good handle on Astrophysics will be along shortly and we'll all learn a lot of interesting stuff. Big Grin

(04-03-2015 01:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And there you have it.

Well... really, you've just created a whole slew of new questions though, haven't you?

Much cheers to all.
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05-03-2015, 09:47 AM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(04-03-2015 05:48 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Hello again, I'm sorry I seem to have lost the previous thread's links/heading where we were discussing things.

(04-03-2015 01:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Of course you can argue that if God was created as a result of say, the Big Bang. But he pre-exists this universe.

Okay... so the deity (Or possibly deities.) exist beyond the realm of time and space. Which puts them/it... where? In something the human mind can't even come to grips with?

(04-03-2015 01:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. Of course you can argue that if God existed in a space or time outside our own. Question of the day--our measuring tools can only see a universe that is approx. 16B light years across in any direction from Earth.

That's great. So now the deity is 16B odd light years away. How does it interact with us now, here when it's all the way over (And technically in the past?) there? You're kind of saying that a god is faster than the speed of light? Consider

Deities interact with reality.... instantaneously, regardless of distance?

(04-03-2015 01:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Does it go on infinitely, forever?

I'm sure some one with a really good background in Astrophysics will be along to explain who 'big' reality is/might be. Big Grin

(04-03-2015 01:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And since it is expanding (just as the Bible says it is)

Citation please. Smile

(04-03-2015 01:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What is it expanding inside of or outside of?

Ah! I've seen this in another thread. Smile

Our reality is not 'expanding' into 'anything'. There seems to be no 'edge' to our reality. It is just as big as it is and the spaces between everything are getting farther apart. Mind twisting idea to get one's head around, no?

Again, I'm sure some one with a really good handle on Astrophysics will be along shortly and we'll all learn a lot of interesting stuff. Big Grin

(04-03-2015 01:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And there you have it.

Well... really, you've just created a whole slew of new questions though, haven't you?

Much cheers to all.

Are you serious? I didn't say God is outside the universe 16B light years off, I said He's come to Earth in the person of Jesus, and is currently urging everyone at TTA to trust Him...

I'm pointing out that whether you or I have trouble conceiving what might be outside our universe, that it is both in expansion and has to be expanding across some medium.

**

These verses are more remarkable since many at TTA feel the Bible was written by competing teams of authors from different kingdoms or time periods:

Job 9:8
He alone stretches out the heavens _ and treads on the waves of the sea.

Psalm 104:2
The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; _ he stretches out the heavens like a tent

Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, _ and its people are like grasshoppers. _He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, _ and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Isaiah 42:5
This is what God the LORD says _the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, _ who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, _ who gives breath to its people, _ and life to those who walk on it

Isaiah 44:24
This is what the LORD says _ your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, _ the Maker of all things, _ who stretches out the heavens, _ who spreads out the earth by myself,

Isaiah 45:12
It is I who made the earth _ and created mankind on it. _My own hands stretched out the heavens; _ I marshaled their starry hosts.

Isaiah 48:13
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, _ and my right hand spread out the heavens; _when I summon them, _ they all stand up together.

Isaiah 51:13
that you forget the LORD your Maker, _ who stretches out the heavens _ and who lays the foundations of the earth, _that you live in constant terror every day _ because of the wrath of the oppressor, _ who is bent on destruction?

Jeremiah 10:12
But God made the earth by his power; _ he founded the world by his wisdom _ and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.

Jeremiah 51:15
He made the earth by his power; _ he founded the world by his wisdom _ and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.

Zechariah 12:1
The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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08-03-2015, 12:26 AM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(31-01-2015 07:52 AM)gofish! Wrote:  
(31-01-2015 07:49 AM)Learner Wrote:  What is the best way to respond to the theist response to the atheist argument "Who created God?", when the theist says, "Well, nobody created God because God is self-existent!" (As with most, if not all theist arguments, the level of their arguments and responses seems too simplistic and childish and assuming to me, but I want to know the best way to respond to their lame arguments.)

God is the epitome of the strawman/argument from authority. I don't engage in discussions about God unless it (a) entertains me or (b) someone has evidence.

But to respond to this claim, I'd say "show me the evidence".

EDIT: Better...."Well that'll be your little secret then".

On what grounds do you ask for evidence?

Truth seeker.
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08-03-2015, 12:42 AM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(08-03-2015 12:26 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(31-01-2015 07:52 AM)gofish! Wrote:  God is the epitome of the strawman/argument from authority. I don't engage in discussions about God unless it (a) entertains me or (b) someone has evidence.

But to respond to this claim, I'd say "show me the evidence".

EDIT: Better...."Well that'll be your little secret then".

On what grounds do you ask for evidence?

Do you instantly believe everything you're told dildo?
Have you never questioned anything?
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