"God is self-existent"
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31-01-2015, 09:13 AM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(31-01-2015 09:08 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  The problem here is we are rational, thus our arguments are plain, simple and logical. When dealing with irrational people, these arguments fall on deaf ears. They make it complicated and illogical to justify their irrational faith. It's why I don't like to argue one-on-one with theists anymore, because if they are willing to argue then generally they have their minds made up and there is no changing them. But if there's an audience, then my arguments may be heard by those on the fence.

I can sympathize with this. I've lost my mind in arguments with theists or people who hold other deeply irrational positions because they are 100% convinced that they are right and only use as evidence confirmation biases (conservative news, websites and youtube channels). It's really complicated to argue with these people because they always have a way to rationalize their behaviour and find reasons to why they're right and you're not, and even after you prove them wrong they still believe to be objectively right and that you are wrong. Damn..

I think we, as human beings, atheists and skeptics, ought to be open to other positions. We shouldn't start from the premise that we are right on every position we hold. When we convince ourselves that we are right in everything, we tend to make up our minds, and everyone who disagrees with us will be labelled as an asshole. I hate it when people decide that they want to believe in X or that Y is their political ideology - They close their minds to everything else, and nothing can change that. Even contrary evidence

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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31-01-2015, 09:13 AM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2015 11:47 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: "God is self-existent"
"God is self-existent" doesn't really say or mean anything, without further clarification.
The question remains, "how does/did Reality (in which existence is defined) 'obtain' " ?
A god that exists MUST participate (necessarily) in a larger Reality, (existence/non-existence) etc.
Their deity has "properties" and definitions. Some it has, others it doesn't have. That means Reality is LARGER than the god who supposedly created Reality.

What created Reality ?
In other words, a god that is exists can't be the creator of the very Reality in which it MUST participate for its own reality/definition. A god that is "self-existent" *found* (finds) itself to not be "non-existent". Therefore Reality is larger (and always had to be) then their "existing" god. Reality remains unexplained.

So just ask, "Does your god NOT exist also ?". If the answer is "no, god ONLY exists, god does not *not exist*", then they're up shit creek.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-01-2015, 09:36 AM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(31-01-2015 08:58 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  


"Why not save a step? In fact, I'm going to demonstrate how to save a step by standing on this moving platform. See, it's just that easy. Now I'm going to demonstrate the way that creationists backslide in the face of new evidence, by backsliding under this tree here. See what I did there, Christians? Hey, this slidey platform is really fun weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee--wait, what was I talking about again?"

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
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31-01-2015, 10:39 AM
RE: "God is self-existent"
Respond with - "That's an interesting belief you have. Do you have any way of determining if your beliefs are true or false ? I like to have as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible. I determine if my beliefs are true or not by justifying my beliefs with rational evidence. How do you do it ?"

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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31-01-2015, 03:02 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(31-01-2015 07:49 AM)Learner Wrote:  What is the best way to respond to the theist response to the atheist argument "Who created God?", when the theist says, "Well, nobody created God because God is self-existent!" (As with most, if not all theist arguments, the level of their arguments and responses seems too simplistic and childish and assuming to me, but I want to know the best way to respond to their lame arguments.)

Can't say I've heard the 'self-existent' qualifier before. Consider

This argument is an argument from wordplay, the easiest way to get rid of such nonsense is to dismantle the wordplay.

"Self-existent" is in reality, a non-thing. Based on the words, we can reasonably define such a quality as 'the existence of an entity due to it's self'; or otherwise stated 'it exists by it existing'. This qualifier can only be made if the maker is assuming the conclusion and also committing special pleading in order to attach the qualifier: They are assuming the deity in question is 'self existent' from the outset and plead to place the qualifier for god opposed to all other things.

Additionally, 'self-existent' requires there to be a self to already exist in order for that self to exist in and of itself: at some point, that 'self-existent' god had to have begun existing or it could not have been aware of itself to maintain it's own existence, by definition.

Of course, if the theist disagrees of the above logic, it forces them into the dangerous ground of having to define their terms.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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01-02-2015, 05:37 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
It sounds like you're saying that god caused himself to exist.

If that's all it takes, then I say he also willed himself to no longer exist once he realized he was all alone.

Since there is no evidence of a god existing, I must be right.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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01-02-2015, 06:00 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(31-01-2015 07:49 AM)Learner Wrote:  "Well, nobody created God because God is self-existent!"
I like the scientific method as a way to objectively discover facts about our weird and wonderful universe.
Otherwise I feel we are just taking wild guesses, which is fun and all, but ultimately I don't consider unsupported claims to have much credibility.
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01-02-2015, 06:28 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(31-01-2015 07:49 AM)Learner Wrote:  What is the best way to respond to the theist response to the atheist argument "Who created God?", when the theist says, "Well, nobody created God because God is self-existent!" (As with most, if not all theist arguments, the level of their arguments and responses seems too simplistic and childish and assuming to me, but I want to know the best way to respond to their lame arguments.)

Don't give them the benefit of the doubt that a god exists in the first place.
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02-02-2015, 12:59 AM
RE: "God is self-existent"
When is this self-existent event suppose to happen ?

I can't wait to see something pop into existence fully formed with a mind and all that power & wisdom.

Should be a fantastic event, so when is it suppose to happen ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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02-02-2015, 01:27 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(31-01-2015 07:49 AM)Learner Wrote:  What is the best way to respond to the theist response to the atheist argument "Who created God?", when the theist says, "Well, nobody created God because God is self-existent!" (As with most, if not all theist arguments, the level of their arguments and responses seems too simplistic and childish and assuming to me, but I want to know the best way to respond to their lame arguments.)

Here's a tangent to this idea: if this God being exists outside of time (which he must if he existed before the beginning of time), how does he interact with humans in linear time? Since this is all hypothetical, I guess it's also speculative, but if God is real and exists outside time, then aren't all the christians who are going to heaven to exist with him already there? And how could a being outside of time communicate with us at a specific time (such as when he talked to Abraham or Moses in the OT, or as Jesus in the NT)? If this is scientific non-sense, forgive me. I'm a financial person with an interest (but little experience) in science.
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