"God is self-existent"
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02-02-2015, 02:29 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(31-01-2015 09:13 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "God is self-existent" doesn't really say or mean anything, without further clarification.
The question remains, "how does/did Reality (in which existence is defined) 'obtain' " ?
A god that exists MUST participate (necessarily) in a larger Reality, (existence/non-existence) etc.
Their deity has "properties" and definitions. Some it has, others it doesn't have. That means Reality is LARGER than the god who supposedly created Reality.

What created Reality ?
In other words, a god that is exists can't be the creator of the very Reality in which it MUST participate for its own reality/definition. A god that is "self-existent" *found* (finds) itself to not be "non-existent". Therefore Reality is larger (and always had to be) then their "existing" god. Reality remains unexplained.

So just ask, "Does your god NOT exist also ?". If the answer is "no, god ONLY exists, god does not *not exist*", then they're up shit creek.

This is similar to the "God exists outside of space and time" argument I've come across many times. Outside of space and time is outside of reality so, as you say, what created reality. It's an attempt to make god so far away in physical terms that he/she/it's place of origin can't be known. It's just another way to keep theists from questioning their belief.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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02-02-2015, 02:57 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(31-01-2015 07:49 AM)Learner Wrote:  What is the best way to respond to the theist response to the atheist argument "Who created God?", when the theist says, "Well, nobody created God because God is self-existent!" (As with most, if not all theist arguments, the level of their arguments and responses seems too simplistic and childish and assuming to me, but I want to know the best way to respond to their lame arguments.)

Ah, but if accept your "proof" that you exist because you sense that you are self-existent, cogito ergo sum, I'm afraid you must accept that I know God exists because I know He does.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-02-2015, 08:30 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(02-02-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(31-01-2015 07:49 AM)Learner Wrote:  What is the best way to respond to the theist response to the atheist argument "Who created God?", when the theist says, "Well, nobody created God because God is self-existent!" (As with most, if not all theist arguments, the level of their arguments and responses seems too simplistic and childish and assuming to me, but I want to know the best way to respond to their lame arguments.)

Ah, but if accept your "proof" that you exist because you sense that you are self-existent, cogito ergo sum, I'm afraid you must accept that I know God exists because I know He does.

I am willing to bet that within 5 minutes of a PM, and perhaps a phone call, I could be more convinced of Learner's existence than god's. That's a pretty amazing accomplishment, since (I'm guessing) Learner hasn't claimed power over all of space and time.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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02-02-2015, 09:41 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(02-02-2015 01:27 PM)dogerdog Wrote:  
(31-01-2015 07:49 AM)Learner Wrote:  What is the best way to respond to the theist response to the atheist argument "Who created yGod?", when the theist says, "Well, nobody created God because God is self-existent!" (As with most, if not all theist arguments, the level of their arguments and responses seems too simplistic and childish and assuming to me, but I want to know the best way to respond to their lame arguments.)

Here's a tangent to this idea: if this God being exists outside of time (which he must if he existed before the beginning of time), how does he interact with humans in linear time? Since this is all hypothetical, I guess it's also speculative, but if God is real and exists outside time, then aren't all the christians who are going to heaven to exist with him already there? And how could a being outside of time communicate with us at a specific time (such as when he talked to Abraham or Moses in the OT, or as Jesus in the NT)? If this is scientific non-sense, forgive me. I'm a financial person with an interest (but little experience) in science.

As far as I understand it, there's a bigger problem for god being outside of time. God would be unable to act to create time as there would be no time for the action to happen in.
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03-02-2015, 07:05 AM
RE: "God is self-existent"
He could be outside of our time, but have his own temporal dimension or something similar. Then he would be free to change himself and move to different parts of our space time to do the work he wants, like a tinkering time traveller.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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03-02-2015, 08:35 AM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(02-02-2015 09:41 PM)OddGamer Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 01:27 PM)dogerdog Wrote:  Here's a tangent to this idea: if this God being exists outside of time (which he must if he existed before the beginning of time), how does he interact with humans in linear time? Since this is all hypothetical, I guess it's also speculative, but if God is real and exists outside time, then aren't all the christians who are going to heaven to exist with him already there? And how could a being outside of time communicate with us at a specific time (such as when he talked to Abraham or Moses in the OT, or as Jesus in the NT)? If this is scientific non-sense, forgive me. I'm a financial person with an interest (but little experience) in science.

As far as I understand it, there's a bigger problem for god being outside of time. God would be unable to act to create time as there would be no time for the action to happen in.

yes, an even better point.
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03-02-2015, 09:26 AM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(02-02-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(31-01-2015 07:49 AM)Learner Wrote:  What is the best way to respond to the theist response to the atheist argument "Who created God?", when the theist says, "Well, nobody created God because God is self-existent!" (As with most, if not all theist arguments, the level of their arguments and responses seems too simplistic and childish and assuming to me, but I want to know the best way to respond to their lame arguments.)

Ah, but if accept your "proof" that you exist because you sense that you are self-existent, cogito ergo sum, I'm afraid you must accept that I know God exists because I know He does.

Nice strawman. Drinking Beverage Where did Learner say he knows he exists because he senses he is self-existent?

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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03-02-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(02-02-2015 08:30 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Ah, but if accept your "proof" that you exist because you sense that you are self-existent, cogito ergo sum, I'm afraid you must accept that I know God exists because I know He does.

I am willing to bet that within 5 minutes of a PM, and perhaps a phone call, I could be more convinced of Learner's existence than god's. That's a pretty amazing accomplishment, since (I'm guessing) Learner hasn't claimed power over all of space and time.

And I think that would be a natural line of reasoning. But perhaps you are familiar with the concept where a person comes to you and says, "You don't exist. This is all in my imagination." This may only be resolved as you asserting that you know you exist "deep down"...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-02-2015, 03:24 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(03-02-2015 10:32 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 08:30 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  I am willing to bet that within 5 minutes of a PM, and perhaps a phone call, I could be more convinced of Learner's existence than god's. That's a pretty amazing accomplishment, since (I'm guessing) Learner hasn't claimed power over all of space and time.

And I think that would be a natural line of reasoning. But perhaps you are familiar with the concept where a person comes to you and says, "You don't exist. This is all in my imagination." This may only be resolved as you asserting that you know you exist "deep down"...

You forgot one thing. You offered no explanation or support for your assertion/claim.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-02-2015, 06:43 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(02-02-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Ah, but if accept your "proof" that you exist because you sense that you are self-existent,...

The first part of sentence.. doesn't actually make sense.... "Ah, but if accept..." ?

(02-02-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  cogito ergo sum,

Adding in some well known Latin doesn't help in either the joining of the two sentences/premises nor add any validity to either.

(02-02-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm afraid you must accept that I know God exists because I know He does.

No... people do not have to accept that you know any deity exists just because you say so.

The step from "I know I exist" to "I know 'Y' exists." is wide, broad, deep and very different.

Much cheers to all.
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