"God is self-existent"
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17-02-2015, 12:02 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(17-02-2015 11:40 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 11:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, you are both missing something, something I've mentioned before that bears repeating. Archaeology is a modern pursuit. Descriptions of certain facets of architecture undo much of JEDP theory/late and liberal HB dates, and researchers in modern times have verified literally hundreds of places and persons in the scriptures in both testaments.

The skeptics who knock the conservative dating for the Bible, I'm afraid, often do so on a wholly illogical and shallow basis. Example, the canard that the biblical Moses is a figment of someone's imagination because "Moses" isn't an Egyptian name--this was a "hot potato" some years ago until people like me noticed the obvious Pharaoh name of record, Tuthmosis and Rameses. Moses is "son" and Rameses is "Son of Ra".

I don't get how you can say you understand the top point clearly and not see how it's actually what large degrees of the reasoning for the bottom points is considered invalid... mainly because of the lack of evidence of archaeological evidence to think of the populous of Moses and his people being in Eygpt. And the manner of which degrees of writings and existing other artifacts that highlight more varied evidence to the stories. Plus the merging of how ideas seemed to spread through those archaeological ideas after the Babylonian captures and returns to the holy area.

I bet we're both aware, however, that 1) Moses was not the prince in line to be Pharaoh but a member of the royal household only and 2) that the Egyptians and other ancients would destroy and blot out every last record of a traitor(s) like Moses and the Jewish people.

I also am aware of the many intricate details given in the Exodus and Flood narratives that are found nowhere else.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-02-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(17-02-2015 12:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 11:40 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't get how you can say you understand the top point clearly and not see how it's actually what large degrees of the reasoning for the bottom points is considered invalid... mainly because of the lack of evidence of archaeological evidence to think of the populous of Moses and his people being in Eygpt. And the manner of which degrees of writings and existing other artifacts that highlight more varied evidence to the stories. Plus the merging of how ideas seemed to spread through those archaeological ideas after the Babylonian captures and returns to the holy area.

I bet we're both aware, however, that 1) Moses was not the prince in line to be Pharaoh but a member of the royal household only and 2) that the Egyptians and other ancients would destroy and blot out every last record of a traitor(s) like Moses and the Jewish people.

I also am aware of the many intricate details given in the Exodus and Flood narratives that are found nowhere else.

So... You're trying to tell us that an ancient culture known for it's record keeping would exclude such major events like a successful slave rebellion of six hundred thousand and the subsequent sacking? Not to mention all the magic stuff.

Cool hypothesis bro, needs more supporting evidence. Or leviathans.

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17-02-2015, 06:46 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(17-02-2015 12:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 11:40 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't get how you can say you understand the top point clearly and not see how it's actually what large degrees of the reasoning for the bottom points is considered invalid... mainly because of the lack of evidence of archaeological evidence to think of the populous of Moses and his people being in Eygpt. And the manner of which degrees of writings and existing other artifacts that highlight more varied evidence to the stories. Plus the merging of how ideas seemed to spread through those archaeological ideas after the Babylonian captures and returns to the holy area.

I bet we're both aware, however, that 1) Moses was not the prince in line to be Pharaoh but a member of the royal household only and 2) that the Egyptians and other ancients would destroy and blot out every last record of a traitor(s) like Moses and the Jewish people.

I also am aware of the many intricate details given in the Exodus and Flood narratives that are found nowhere else.

So, things that are only in those narratives and have no confirming evidence or support are therefore more believable? Seriously?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-02-2015, 02:56 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(17-02-2015 02:35 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 12:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I bet we're both aware, however, that 1) Moses was not the prince in line to be Pharaoh but a member of the royal household only and 2) that the Egyptians and other ancients would destroy and blot out every last record of a traitor(s) like Moses and the Jewish people.

I also am aware of the many intricate details given in the Exodus and Flood narratives that are found nowhere else.

So... You're trying to tell us that an ancient culture known for it's record keeping would exclude such major events like a successful slave rebellion of six hundred thousand and the subsequent sacking? Not to mention all the magic stuff.

Cool hypothesis bro, needs more supporting evidence. Or leviathans.

Chas and Free Thought,

I've read some pretty interesting anecdotes and archaeological finds outside the Tanach in these things, Moses, the Exodus, the plagues, even a papyri where people who are starving say they're going to see Joseph in Egypt, who predates Moses by nearly four centuries.

But before you say "citations, please" we both know neither of you give a rip. You could see Brian Williams posting live from Egypt and you still wouldn't believe (pun intended!). So don't bother. When I saw these details, I said, "Oh, big deal. I kind of expect to find evidence for the Bible like I do daily anyway." Certainly, I'm able to have a clean conscience and say I'm conversant with both the scriptures and the reasons outside the scriptures to trust God.

But my zeal for you, and my heart's desire, is that you repent and also find a clear conscience before God, who will judge all people. May we all stand on that day and be unashamed before Him.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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19-02-2015, 05:03 PM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2015 05:08 PM by Chas.)
RE: "God is self-existent"
(19-02-2015 02:56 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 02:35 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  So... You're trying to tell us that an ancient culture known for it's record keeping would exclude such major events like a successful slave rebellion of six hundred thousand and the subsequent sacking? Not to mention all the magic stuff.

Cool hypothesis bro, needs more supporting evidence. Or leviathans.

Chas and Free Thought,

I've read some pretty interesting anecdotes and archaeological finds outside the Tanach in these things, Moses, the Exodus, the plagues, even a papyri where people who are starving say they're going to see Joseph in Egypt, who predates Moses by nearly four centuries.

But before you say "citations, please" we both know neither of you give a rip. You could see Brian Williams posting live from Egypt and you still wouldn't believe (pun intended!). So don't bother.

Go fuck yourself, you smarmy, passive-aggressive shithead. Citations or shut the fuck up.

Quote: When I saw these details, I said, "Oh, big deal. I kind of expect to find evidence for the Bible like I do daily anyway." Certainly, I'm able to have a clean conscience and say I'm conversant with both the scriptures and the reasons outside the scriptures to trust God.

Goody for you. Citations or shut the fuck up.

Quote:But my zeal for you, and my heart's desire, is that you repent and also find a clear conscience before God, who will judge all people. May we all stand on that day and be unashamed before Him.

Oh, fuck off. Your preaching is worthless.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-02-2015, 05:46 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(19-02-2015 02:56 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 02:35 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  So... You're trying to tell us that an ancient culture known for it's record keeping would exclude such major events like a successful slave rebellion of six hundred thousand and the subsequent sacking? Not to mention all the magic stuff.

Cool hypothesis bro, needs more supporting evidence. Or leviathans.

Chas and Free Thought,

I've read some pretty interesting anecdotes and archaeological finds outside the Tanach in these things, Moses, the Exodus, the plagues, even a papyri where people who are starving say they're going to see Joseph in Egypt, who predates Moses by nearly four centuries.

But before you say "citations, please" we both know neither of you give a rip. You could see Brian Williams posting live from Egypt and you still wouldn't believe (pun intended!). So don't bother. When I saw these details, I said, "Oh, big deal. I kind of expect to find evidence for the Bible like I do daily anyway." Certainly, I'm able to have a clean conscience and say I'm conversant with both the scriptures and the reasons outside the scriptures to trust God.

But my zeal for you, and my heart's desire, is that you repent and also find a clear conscience before God, who will judge all people. May we all stand on that day and be unashamed before Him.

I fail to see why it is so hard for you to provide even a single citation for any claim you have ever made here. It's not like you'd lose anything from the effort. You proving yourself right for once would certainly be a novel experience.

I'd ask you for proof that Chas and I (along with every other poster here) don't care about the evidence you keep claiming to have, but based on observed trends, you in all likelihood don't have any proof of that claim either.

And I'll throw you this on the house: Protip: your heart does not have desires as it is not a brain.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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23-02-2015, 01:51 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
FreeThought:

You might want evidence, but Chas's post proves my point exactly. I said it's out there and his comments demonstrate he neither cares for my citations and references nor wants to really see them at all.

As for yourself, where do you spend more time and energy? TTA discussing with Christians why they're wrong, or online searching for evidence as to God's possible existence?

Thanks.

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24-02-2015, 07:03 AM (This post was last modified: 24-02-2015 07:47 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: "God is self-existent"
Although I don't check into this section of the board quite frequently enough to be a regular commenter, I for one am open to being convinced. But when someone says something is true out of the findings of historical or archaeological study but doesn't provide citations then major components of their argument are unsupported, which tends to leave the entire argument unable to be assessed. If you have a claim I for one would be keen to see that claim sourced and cited so that I can evaluate the argument as a whole.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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24-02-2015, 07:05 AM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(23-02-2015 01:51 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  FreeThought:

You might want evidence, but Chas's post proves my point exactly. I said it's out there and his comments demonstrate he neither cares for my citations and references nor wants to really see them at all.

As for yourself, where do you spend more time and energy? TTA discussing with Christians why they're wrong, or online searching for evidence as to God's possible existence?

Thanks.

You haven't actually provided any, you disingenuous twat.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-02-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: "God is self-existent"
(24-02-2015 07:03 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Although I don't check into this section of the board quite frequently enough to be a regular commenter, I for one am open to being convinced. But when someone says something is true out of the findings of historical or archaeological study but doesn't provide citations then major components of their argument are unsupported, which tends to leave the entire argument unable to be assessed. If you have a claim I for one would be keen to see that claim sourced and cited so that I can evaluate the argument as a whole.

Unfortunately for us both, then, I tend to feel less energetic about offering citations when called a name by Chas.

So, I'm still saved, and I suggest if you're really intrigued you look up the citations, then send me a PM, and we'll just keep Chas out of this until he cools off some. I find Joseph's and Moses's stories outside the Bible compelling, but salvation, of course, is found in Jesus's story.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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