God loves the world so much that he/she:
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11-10-2010, 05:14 PM
 
RE: God loves the world so much that he/she:
(11-10-2010 02:51 PM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  
(11-10-2010 02:30 PM)TruthAddict Wrote:  Please share with us your "evidence" for God.

My evidence is the same as your evidence. I say it points to God, you say it points to something else. The evidence itself is the same. It is what we observe. You, me, animals, the earth, galaxy, fossils, etc. The most important evidence to me is the bible.

Thanks for asking!

But here is the problem I have with that-

You begin with the notion of God. You were told at some age that God is real. And then you see everything around you and say that "This is all evidence that God exists."

Science begins with the evidence. It looks around at everything and observes it. And then, it formulates cause and effect, reasons, patterns, laws, theories etc...

It is a matter of the deductive vs the inductive method. I can use the deductive method to provide evidence for any number of notions, none of which would be any more valid than your notion of God. I could have been told at the age of 3 that the flying spaghetti monster was responsible for creation. Then, I would use the deductive method and attribute everything I observe to the spaghetti monster. How is this different than what you do?

The problem is that the majority of the people around the world are theist by default, simply because that is how they are raised. They are told at an age before they are capable of "reason" (Before the age of reason if you will) that there is a God and he did all this and whatnot. The people that tell these children this were told the same thing during their childhood. And thus their entire lives they continue attributing everything they see to God, never questioning the original premise.

A reliable way of determining what is and is not true would be to approach the world from a default agnostic perspective. Then, through observation and the inductive method, a premise is constructed based upon the observations and not the other way around. This is basically what science does.

As for the Bible, using it to validate Christianity is like (and I don't mean to offend here) using Mein Kampf to prove the superiority of the Aryan race. You need outside credibility.
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12-10-2010, 01:19 AM
RE: God loves the world so much that he/she:
(09-10-2010 06:01 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, No. J.

I'm not sure I understand the intent of the thread. Is this an argument against God loving humans or is it an argument against God?

I wanted to see what other things would be added by others to the thread. It didn't work the way I expected it, but it got some convrsation going. My view is that if you love your children would you do these things? Definitely not. Then if god loves us, why would he/she do these, and other things that I have missed?
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12-10-2010, 06:59 AM
 
RE: God loves the world so much that he/she:
(11-10-2010 05:14 PM)TruthAddict Wrote:  But here is the problem I have with that-

You begin with the notion of God. You were told at some age that God is real. And then you see everything around you and say that "This is all evidence that God exists."

Science begins with the evidence. It looks around at everything and observes it. And then, it formulates cause and effect, reasons, patterns, laws, theories etc...

Good points, and well written. Admittedly it is hard for me to start from an agnostic perspective. Now if I really had to, I guess I would do the following:

1) Try to figure out the chances of me existing through evolution.
2) Try to figure out the chances that 40 different authors, many of whom had never met each other, could write such a closely knit and time-tested book, all by chance with no divine inspiration.
3) Try to figure out the chances that these authors would be willing to die for what they wrote, if what they wrote was knowingly false. Most of the New Testament authors were martyred for their writings and beliefs. Would you die for something you made up?

I can go on, but I think just combining those 3 odds would put the final result somewhere between slim and none.

I was born with a very analytical mind. Sometimes I wish I was more emotional, but I accept the way I am. If there was 100% absolute proof that God did not exist, I would like to think that I would change my mind, but to me, the evidence clearly points to a God, one that over the years I have grown closer and closer to. And the christian friends I have gained over the past 3 years since I moved to where I live now, are some of the purest, nicest, most loving, caring and generous people I have ever met. And they, as I strive to do, do it all in the name of Jesus.

P.S.: I have heard about the flying spaghetti monster. I even saw his video on this site. He looks scary, but tasty too. But seriously, as far as I know, "it" has never written a book, sent a meatball to come down to earth to be eaten for the atonement of our sins, and while spaghetti is eaten and loved by millions of people, I don't know too many who worship the stuff Wink
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12-10-2010, 12:22 PM
RE: God loves the world so much that he/she:
(12-10-2010 06:59 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  1) Try to figure out the chances of me existing through evolution.
2) Try to figure out the chances that 40 different authors, many of whom had never met each other, could write such a closely knit and time-tested book, all by chance with no divine inspiration.
3) Try to figure out the chances that these authors would be willing to die for what they wrote, if what they wrote was knowingly false. Most of the New Testament authors were martyred for their writings and beliefs. Would you die for something you made up?

These are three flawed methodologies. First, evolution has nothing to do with chance. You and I are not anticipated end results. We are just end results. We know that evolution happens. We know that geological evidence pretty much proves that the earth is billions of years old and that there is a fossil record also dating back billions of years. So the issue (note that I don't say question) is was there enough time for gradual change over time to result in something LIKE us. Could chimps and gorillas have evolved in the time span? Could they have independently evolved from a common ancestor? Is there a fossil record that shows the changes? Could that common ancestor have evolved from something lie a lemur? Could that lemur-like ancestor have evolved from a cat-like or possum-like ancestor? So on and so forth.

I'd say the answer is yes, and if a chimp could have evolved in that time period, then so could we. We basically are just smaller, hairless chimps with an adaptation for language.

Second, if you actually read the bible and the apocryphal texts in chronological order, it's clear that they borrowed from each other. Besides, the stories they tell; virgin birth, raising the dead, walking on water, all also appear in stories attributed to other messianic figures and mythological heroes. Jesus is an arch-typical hero in no way unique.

Third, willingness to die for a belief has given us Lindo Man, the Hassassin, the kamakazi, and most recently the 911 terrorist attackers. The martyrdom of the apostles is in tht light not especially compelling proof of squat.
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12-10-2010, 12:36 PM
 
RE: God loves the world so much that he/she:
(12-10-2010 12:22 PM)gamutman Wrote:  Second, if you actually read the bible and the apocryphal texts in chronological order, it's clear that they borrowed from each other. Besides, the stories they tell; virgin birth, raising the dead, walking on water, all also appear in stories attributed to other messianic figures and mythological heroes. Jesus is an arch-typical hero in no way unique.

What you just wrote about strengthens my belief in a Creator God and the accounts of the bible. The fact that many cultures, religions, etc. have similar stories, in my opinion, supports the creation account, and Babel account when the nations of the world were scattered.

Quote:Third, willingness to die for a belief has given us Lindo Man, the Hassassin, the kamakazi, and most recently the 911 terrorist attackers. The martyrdom of the apostles is in tht light not especially compelling proof of squat.

Please remember I am not trying to prove anything to you. It was suggested to me to look at the evidence without the pre-existing notion of a god. That's what I did, and for me, the evidence still points to a god, or at the very least, that a Creator God is the more likely story. And I respect your decision to group the bible authors with Lindo Man, Hassassin, kamikazes and 911 hijackers. I'd hope you would respect my decision to see absolutely no connection between them.
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12-10-2010, 12:57 PM
 
RE: God loves the world so much that he/she:
(12-10-2010 12:36 PM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  
(12-10-2010 12:22 PM)gamutman Wrote:  Second, if you actually read the bible and the apocryphal texts in chronological order, it's clear that they borrowed from each other. Besides, the stories they tell; virgin birth, raising the dead, walking on water, all also appear in stories attributed to other messianic figures and mythological heroes. Jesus is an arch-typical hero in no way unique.

What you just wrote about strengthens my belief in a Creator God and the accounts of the bible. The fact that many cultures, religions, etc. have similar stories, in my opinion, supports the creation account, and Babel account when the nations of the world were scattered.


I never really understood how the blatant plagiarism leads to strengthened belief.
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12-10-2010, 01:14 PM
RE: God loves the world so much that he/she:
(12-10-2010 12:36 PM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  And I respect your decision to group the bible authors with Lindo Man, Hassassin, kamikazes and 911 hijackers. I'd hope you would respect my decision to see absolutely no connection between them.

I respect that you have the right to be a denialist, but that doesn't mean I have to respect denialism. IF someone's willingness to die for his belief is proof that the belief is valid and true, then David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite, and Jim Jones all had valid and true beliefs.
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12-10-2010, 01:25 PM
 
RE: God loves the world so much that he/she:
(12-10-2010 12:57 PM)inkracer Wrote:  I never really understood how the blatant plagiarism leads to strengthened belief.

Or, perhaps the fact that all accounts agree with each other means that it actually happened. If 1000 history books all say that the allies won WWII, would you accuse 999 of them of plagiarism?
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12-10-2010, 01:32 PM
 
RE: God loves the world so much that he/she:
(12-10-2010 01:25 PM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  
(12-10-2010 12:57 PM)inkracer Wrote:  I never really understood how the blatant plagiarism leads to strengthened belief.

Or, perhaps the fact that all accounts agree with each other means that it actually happened. If 1000 history books all say that the allies won WWII, would you accuse 999 of them of plagiarism?

But we aren't talking about an event which can be (and has been) historically confirmed. We are talking about an events which are only in one book, and the many authors of the book borrowed heavily from each other, as well as none of them being eyewitnesses. Then added in that the Jesus story isn't even original, it's a copy of a copy itself.
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12-10-2010, 01:43 PM
 
RE: God loves the world so much that he/she:
(12-10-2010 01:14 PM)gamutman Wrote:  I respect that you have the right to be a denialist, but that doesn't mean I have to respect denialism. IF someone's willingness to die for his belief is proof that the belief is valid and true, then David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite, and Jim Jones all had valid and true beliefs.

Again, you are twisting my words by saying they offer "proof". I am not proving anything. I am looking at the evidence and forming my opinion about the evidence. The martyrdom of the biblical authors is one piece of evidence out of many that steer my belief. I am also not denying anything, unless you define denialism as believing something and then anything that is mutually exclusive to that belief is by default denied. Finally, as far as I know none of the martyrs committed suicide, placed themselves at the center of their beliefs, or were declared delusional or mentally ill. Many of them were eye-witnesses.
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