God metaphor with babies
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07-12-2016, 10:22 AM
RE: God metaphor with babies
Terrible analogy for a variety of reasons.

Besides, the non-believing baby would still be born into life (heaven) and would in no way be punished (hell) due to disbelief.

Faith is not a virtue, it's refusing not to be gullible.

Ignorance is not to be ignored.

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07-12-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: God metaphor with babies
Hypothetical talking fetuses, eh? Okay, let's take a look at this metaphor. I'll call the twins Bob and Roy.



Bob: And you, do you believe in life after birth?

Roy: Of course. It's obvious that life after birth exists. We are here to become strong and to prepare for what is waiting for us next.

Bob: Um, okay. I rather like it here, where we are. Do you have any evidence of this "life after birth"? And what is "birth"?

Roy: Well, there's a lot of stories about "the other side"... They say that if you believe in her and worship her and accept her forgiveness for what a bad baby you are, then Mother will care for you and feed you, and make your life after birth totally wonderful.

Bob: Well, you didn't really answer my... but, wait, what's "Mother"? And what if I don't believe in Mother?

Roy: Oh, in that case, Mother will say that you loved the amniotic fluid so much that you deserve to be boiled in a vat of saltwater, screaming in pain until you die.

Bob: That's the most fucked up thing I've ever heard! What kind of monster is Mother?

Roy: Oh, Mother is not a monster, Mother is good, Mother is the source of everything wonderful and loving. But if you won't worship her then she will have no choice but to boil you alive.

Bob: This Mother you describe does not sound like someone a decent, rational fetus should be worshiping.

Roy: Well, allow me to think otherwise. I dont know what this life after birth will look like, and I wont be able to prove you anything. But I like to think that we will see Mother and she will take care of us.

Bob: So this Mother... Where is she then?

Roy: She is everywhere! She's around us and its thanks to her that we live right now. Without her we wouldn't be here.

Bob: Do you have any way to test that hypothesis? Figure out if this environment in which we live really is the Mother you are describing? Any way to figure out if Mother really has the characteristics you describe?

Roy: Well, sometimes, when we are calm, we can hear when she sings... We can feel it when she pets our world... Im certain that our life will begin after birth.

Bob: Those would constitute evidence, yes, if you could demonstrate that they really are coming from a being, and that "Mother" really is the way you describe. But for now, I'm just going to be content with my life as it is, and I'll consider the evidence when it can be demonstrated.

Roy: Oh, you'll see for yourself, someday! You'll see. I'll be cuddled up in Mother's arms while you scream in the boiling kettle!

Bob: Brother, I'm starting to suspect there is something deeply wrong with you.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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07-12-2016, 10:05 PM
RE: God metaphor with babies
I think the main problem with this story is that the babies are actually capable of hearing and feeling the mother, while religious people just convince themselves that they have evidence when they don't. We have never detected the existence of a God through those kinds of methods. If there is evidence then that is quite different.

Another thing, if there were no evidence of the mother's existence, but she did still exist, I would still side with the disbelieving baby even though they're wrong. Because in that case, the other baby made a huge assumption out of nowhere. O.o It is perfectly reasonable to lack belief in something if you have no reason to believe in it. It's not like the atheistic baby is simply dense.
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08-12-2016, 08:05 AM
RE: God metaphor with babies
(07-12-2016 10:05 PM)AnaBunny Wrote:  I think the main problem with this story is that the babies are actually capable of hearing and feeling the mother, while religious people just convince themselves that they have evidence when they don't. We have never detected the existence of a God through those kinds of methods. If there is evidence then that is quite different.

Another thing, if there were no evidence of the mother's existence, but she did still exist, I would still side with the disbelieving baby even though they're wrong. Because in that case, the other baby made a huge assumption out of nowhere. O.o It is perfectly reasonable to lack belief in something if you have no reason to believe in it. It's not like the atheistic baby is simply dense.

Every version of the Christian analogy-story I've ever seen works off that principle, in which one of the protagonists believes something the rest of us hearing the story already know to be true. They're all guilty of assuming the conclusion. As you say, they're "mak[ing] a huge assumption out of nowhere"... in the case of this story (as with many of them), there actually is evidence they can point to which could demonstrate the conclusion, such as mother's singing voice. But with the real fraud the Christians are pushing, there is none. Indeed, tests which should have shown that there's "something" "out there" paying attention to us tend instead to show that the results are indistinguishable from random chance, such as the prayer-healing studies.

When I hear these kinds of metaphors, it just makes me wince because they don't realize how bad of an argument this is. And it makes me outright cringe to think that people actually fall for this kind of thing.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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08-12-2016, 08:40 AM
RE: God metaphor with babies
Also, this story is not about life after death. It's about life after developing life. There is no spirit transitioning from a body to another realm. It's a developing body transitioning to a complete body. This fetus story does nothing to add evidence or even logic for a soul.

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