God or Nothing
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20-05-2012, 01:07 PM
RE: God or Nothing
(20-05-2012 10:37 AM)kim Wrote:  Oh no you don't... don't make me think about strings. Dodgy

Question is, can we make you not think about strings? Big Grin

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20-05-2012, 01:52 PM
 
RE: God or Nothing
(20-05-2012 10:11 AM)darthdambalah Wrote:  i dont understand i think there are enough things that have no reason at all why does it mean that somethings in the universe have a reason to do something that does not mean the universe it self has a reason

That is true, or at least the chain of reasoning is true: That which is a subset derives its meaning from the set, but the set itself has no meaning or reason. We are "sub-real" to God. We derive our reason and meaning from God, but God himself has no meaning, and he has no reason for existing. (now I'm starting to sound like Cantor Weeping )

Therefore, I think "reason" and "meaning" are relative. We have a reason for our existence compared to God who has no reason for his existence. And I suppose that's why atheism takes away reason and meaning from existence. If there is no God, then we are no longer a subset of God, thus we have no reason for being.

Then again, to have a reason for ones existence, by this way of thinking, means that one is lower in being.

Sorry for rambling, but I'm enjoying these philosophical musings about God, and your reply brought a lot of things to mind. Yes
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20-05-2012, 02:06 PM
RE: God or Nothing
(20-05-2012 01:07 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(20-05-2012 10:37 AM)kim Wrote:  Oh no you don't... don't make me think about strings. Dodgy

Question is, can we make you not think about strings? Big Grin
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20-05-2012, 08:22 PM
RE: God or Nothing
(20-05-2012 01:52 PM)Egor Wrote:  Therefore, I think "reason" and "meaning" are relative. We have a reason for our existence compared to God who has no reason for his existence. And I suppose that's why atheism takes away reason and meaning from existence. If there is no God, then we are no longer a subset of God, thus we have no reason for being.

Then again, to have a reason for ones existence, by this way of thinking, means that one is lower in being.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I often enjoy imagining what your reaction will be to these comments of yours, Egor, when/if you become an atheist.

You've come such a long way, and yet it seems like you put a herculean amount of effort into rationalizing just to preserve the intellectual equivalent of a human appendix. Your new and improved approach to life and treating people doesn't require a god concept in any way shape or form. Seems almost like a security blanket of sorts.

It's all good, though. Nice thread.

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20-05-2012, 11:52 PM
RE: God or Nothing
So basically this statement is believe in a flawed supernatural being that only exists because we created such a thing to solve questions we had yet to understand or nothing?


Even in the end, there is plenty of God and or Gods you can replace the first word with. Your personal definition is just one of countless that exists and it doesn't make it any more right than the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Jesus of the book of Mormon (We all know Mormonism is a good joke but I am sorry if I offend anyone who believes in the holiest of all noodles.)

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21-05-2012, 12:03 AM
RE: God or Nothing
Egor, what is the meaning of certain animals? a lot of animals may appear to be completely meaningless, they just exist because they can. No reason at all, if they were removed from this planet then nothing would change.
A certain insect comes to mind that basically its life cycle revolves around being eaten and then pooped out by rabbits but it does nothing to the rabbits (if it killed them it would at least act as a population control).

What about stromatolites XXXXXXXX years ago. They turned CO2 to Oxygen, but other then that they could be seen as completely pointless. I mean this is thousands of years before anything even breathed oxygen.

Dinosaurs? What was the reason behind them?

My point is, not everything has a reason, not everything needs a reason you should just accept that you (and everyone else) in the grand scheme of things is pointless because that is reality. All you can do is live your one little tiny pointless life in the best way you see fit in which you enjoy yourself and whatever.

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21-05-2012, 02:13 AM
RE: God or Nothing
(20-05-2012 02:06 PM)kim Wrote:  
(20-05-2012 01:07 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Question is, can we make you not think about strings? Big Grin
Weeping
Can't have that! Here's some Lubos to cheer you up. Wink



Then I see alla this yammering about reason and purpose, and before you know it, a tab opens fulla Gwynnies - all by itself, I swear! Big Grin

Seems to me that if anyone gives credence to the need for meaning in the universe, they should give credence to the hypothesis that that meaning is to love Gwyneth. Heart But no... peeps start talking about meaning, they're only seeking to validate their meaning. See what I did there? Tongue

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21-05-2012, 03:08 AM
 
RE: God or Nothing
(20-05-2012 08:22 PM)lightninlives Wrote:  I'm not ashamed to admit that I often enjoy imagining what your reaction will be to these comments of yours, Egor, when/if you become an atheist.

You've come such a long way, and yet it seems like you put a herculean amount of effort into rationalizing just to preserve the intellectual equivalent of a human appendix. Your new and improved approach to life and treating people doesn't require a god concept in any way shape or form. Seems almost like a security blanket of sorts.

It's all good, though. Nice thread.


You don't get it: there's more to this universe than you've imagined in your atheism. Atheism is a capitulation. There are things like precognition, NDEs, protozoan consciousness, and the very consciousness of human beings and other animals, not to mention instincts, and other things that point to something other than a soley material universe. It's not enough just to deny these things.

Second, my definition of God, the monistic fundamental consciousness, is not a security blanket. To come to a full awareness of what that definition means, requires one to give up all the comforts of religion.

I am not an atheist. I never will be, but God is not something I can fully comprehend, and the lessons I seem predestine to learn in this life are not easy ones. Nor are they for you. There may come a time when I just don't care anymore, when God is something I stop worrying about, but I'll never be an atheist. Even now, I know that the lucid spiritual plane awaits, and beyond that a union with God--but a union with God, if God is the monistic fundamental consciousness, is the same thing as not existing anymore--by then, Edward Gordon will be gone, and even more: all the lives I've lead will be gone and I will come to realize that I have always been the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness--just as you are. Where is the security blanket in all of that?
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21-05-2012, 03:17 AM
 
RE: God or Nothing
(21-05-2012 12:03 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Egor, what is the meaning of certain animals? a lot of animals may appear to be completely meaningless, they just exist because they can. No reason at all, if they were removed from this planet then nothing would change.
A certain insect comes to mind that basically its life cycle revolves around being eaten and then pooped out by rabbits but it does nothing to the rabbits (if it killed them it would at least act as a population control).

What about stromatolites XXXXXXXX years ago. They turned CO2 to Oxygen, but other then that they could be seen as completely pointless. I mean this is thousands of years before anything even breathed oxygen.

Dinosaurs? What was the reason behind them?

My point is, not everything has a reason, not everything needs a reason you should just accept that you (and everyone else) in the grand scheme of things is pointless because that is reality. All you can do is live your one little tiny pointless life in the best way you see fit in which you enjoy yourself and whatever.


I think you are very right.

Even in my own religious beliefs, that is even when I consider the lucid spiritual plane, my true self, which exists there, is a multitude of lives lived throughout the ages. This life is only one of many, and for my faults there may be many more to come. The truth is, like an atheist, I am coming to hope for my ultimate non-existence. I am coming to hope for the dissolution of myself into the monistic fundamental consciousness, and that is a personal non-existence.

Having said all that, keep in mind the question of this post is how can there be something rather than nothing and yet there not be some kind of pre-universal consciousness that willed it to be.
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21-05-2012, 04:33 AM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2012 04:37 AM by earmuffs.)
RE: God or Nothing
(21-05-2012 03:17 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(21-05-2012 12:03 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Egor, what is the meaning of certain animals? a lot of animals may appear to be completely meaningless, they just exist because they can. No reason at all, if they were removed from this planet then nothing would change.
A certain insect comes to mind that basically its life cycle revolves around being eaten and then pooped out by rabbits but it does nothing to the rabbits (if it killed them it would at least act as a population control).

What about stromatolites XXXXXXXX years ago. They turned CO2 to Oxygen, but other then that they could be seen as completely pointless. I mean this is thousands of years before anything even breathed oxygen.

Dinosaurs? What was the reason behind them?

My point is, not everything has a reason, not everything needs a reason you should just accept that you (and everyone else) in the grand scheme of things is pointless because that is reality. All you can do is live your one little tiny pointless life in the best way you see fit in which you enjoy yourself and whatever.


I think you are very right.

Even in my own religious beliefs, that is even when I consider the lucid spiritual plane, my true self, which exists there, is a multitude of lives lived throughout the ages. This life is only one of many, and for my faults there may be many more to come. The truth is, like an atheist, I am coming to hope for my ultimate non-existence. I am coming to hope for the dissolution of myself into the monistic fundamental consciousness, and that is a personal non-existence.

Having said all that, keep in mind the question of this post is how can there be something rather than nothing and yet there not be some kind of pre-universal consciousness that willed it to be.
Ever thought that we don't know?

Think abut this Egor.
Once upon a time man wondered about the world. "If I look out at the horizon why does it just stop?"
Thus the conclusion that the world was flat was assumed. To be fair, with what they knew at the time it makes sense.
Then along comes a little thing called "I just sailed around the world trololol". Hence a knew theory, the correct one, of the world being a sphere was finally concluded.

My point is, do you think that you are at the point where you are looking out to sea and wondering why it just stops? (metaphor for, what is everything's purpose) And you are coming up with the conclusion that the world is flat. (God).
Get my point?
Because that is what man is like. We try to make sense of things that at the time we cannot make sense of.
The truth is we don't know what was before the big bang (I haven't read to much into the big bang but even I think that theory of a big bang is a little sketchy. I really should read into more however), we don't know why we have come to be other then how we came to be. Science can answer how it is possible we came to be, but not why. But just like the world hundreds of years ago, maybe we just don't really know.
Yet.

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