God or Nothing
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
19-05-2012, 01:54 AM
RE: God or Nothing
(19-05-2012 12:07 AM)Egor Wrote:  Seriously, when you think about it, how can there be no form of God? I mean if there were no God, why would anything exist? Absolute nothingness is a state that cannot change without conscious input of some sort. So, when you say you're an atheist, what you really mean is that you believe the universe has always existed--for eternity for no reason at all.

To me that's an incredible thought process that requires a complete crucifixion of the intellect--just like religion does.
Ok, assuming there is a form of God. Now what makes you think that God is aware of us? Pays attention to us?
Even using the your logic you still cannot come to the conclusion of a God in the traditional sense.

What I am getting at is, if there is some form of God, for example "the God particle" is what scientist love to throw about, why does everyone assume that he/she/it thinks, is aware and actually cares about us?.

Nor does it even explain an afterlife or a soul or any of that super natural stuff. Just because something created everything doesn't give any weight at all to an afterlife.

[Image: 3cdac7eec8f6b059070d9df56f50a7ae.jpg]
Now with 40% more awesome.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-05-2012, 02:34 AM
RE: God or Nothing
(19-05-2012 12:07 AM)Egor Wrote:  Seriously, when you think about it, how can there be no form of God? I mean if there were no God, why would anything exist? Absolute nothingness is a state that cannot change without conscious input of some sort. So, when you say you're an atheist, what you really mean is that you believe the universe has always existed--for eternity for no reason at all.

To me that's an incredible thought process that requires a complete crucifixion of the intellect--just like religion does.

Also, consider that your definition of nothingness may not actually exist. We have no examples in the entire universe of "absolute nothingness." We can observe that things come together momentarily and break apart, energy and matter condenses and disperses, but "what is" is always there, just taking the shape of different things at different times.

I mean, "existence" alone is something. So by its very definition, nothing cannot exist or else it would be something. Therefore, the state of nothingness does not exist.



And if earmuff's Invisible Pink Unicorn doesn't exist, where did everything come from? "I mean if there were no Invisible Pink Unicorn, why would anything exist?" Do you see how unnecessary and interchangeable "God" is in that question? Answering "God" explains nothing and is intellectually lazy and disrespectful to those actually trying to find the answers.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Buddy Christ's post
19-05-2012, 02:55 AM
RE: God or Nothing
(19-05-2012 12:40 AM)Likos02 Wrote:  
(19-05-2012 12:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  We're not so special or complex as to require a deliberate process to bring us about, and surely a deliberate process would have produced better results?



This is one of my main arguements. If god made us in his image then why are there truly fucked up people in the world? If god wanted us all in heaven with him, then why didnt he make us inherently good? Why does the All Powerfull God give us the means to defy him if he wanted us in heaven? And then why does he punish us?
Er, hello? If god wanted us all in heaven with him, then why didn't he just create us in heaven?!?!?!

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like DLJ's post
19-05-2012, 03:51 AM
RE: God or Nothing
why does existence require a God?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-05-2012, 03:55 AM
RE: God or Nothing
And why does existence need a reason
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-05-2012, 05:05 AM
RE: God or Nothing
(19-05-2012 02:55 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(19-05-2012 12:40 AM)Likos02 Wrote:  This is one of my main arguements. If god made us in his image then why are there truly fucked up people in the world? If god wanted us all in heaven with him, then why didnt he make us inherently good? Why does the All Powerfull God give us the means to defy him if he wanted us in heaven? And then why does he punish us?
Er, hello? If god wanted us all in heaven with him, then why didn't he just create us in heaven?!?!?!




Exactly, a christian friend of mine said that "god wants us all with him in heaven, which is why he sent jesus to atone for our sins". And then the logical next question from me is "Why are we here then?" followed by the questions above.

Shock And Awe Tactics-- The "application of massive or overwhelming force" to "disarm, incapacitate, or render the enemy impotent with as few casualties to ourselves and to noncombatants as possible"
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Likos02's post
19-05-2012, 05:41 AM
RE: God or Nothing
I think that possibly at issue is the definition of God. I know that your (edit: Egor's) definition of God is a lot different from a Christian definition.

The Christian God is quite a weird guy. The basic assumptions are:
1. God is a father like figure who's looking out for us.
2. If we're "good", i.e. do what he wants, then like a nice parent he will reward us.
3. The reward is extra super duper special: we get to live forever and have fun forever.
4. Conversely, if we're "bad" then we get punished.
5. The punishment is fucking horrible: we get burned forever and ever.

There's a lot of theology which is devoted to making this crazy model at least confusing enough that if people are brought up believing it from day 1 then they have a hard time refuting it. I mean, if you honestly read those points they're all rather far fetched. For example:

1. I don't see a father figure. That's because he's invisible. But he looks like us. Er... what?
2. I've seen lots of things die. My friends have died. Animals die. As a feature of when they're dead, they stop moving, and they tend to be somewhat obviously broken - you know, bloody, completely fucked, that sort of thing. Now... apparently we get to live forever??? I mean, even the Christians can't pretend that we don't all reach a completely fucked state that we call dead eventually. Ah yes, but when you die *you* a. become invisible b. go live in the sky with God. c. live forever.

It's really just about impossible to believe that.

Your God is more believable, as far as I can make out you postulate that the universe is somehow conscious and (I may be wrong here) benevolent. And this is what you call God. I must say I do like that definition, and I like the idea that when we die, we become more one with God... it's rather... poetic.

The problem for me is that even though I can't refute your God (or even the Christian God, completely), I still have found no reason to make the assumption. I think you have, you have said previously that you have talked to God (I think I remember correctly), so for you, you have a reason.

For myself, as LadyJane says, I am content not to know. A question as big as "Where does the Universe come from, where do *we* come from?"... that we can even have a stab at answering that is miraculous to me. Consider the big bang model. 15 *billion* years since the hypothesized creation moment, we can still study what happened. That's completely *amazing*. But I personally can't really comment on that, I have to take on faith that the guys who're studying it know what they're talking about. I can live and die without knowing how I got here, it's not an issue.

Incidentally the reason I take it on faith from the science guys but not the religion guys is that I've studied a bit of science and it's a *whole lot* more believable than the religious model. It's not that I just want to disbelieve the religious model, it's that I've evaluated the scientists and decided they're more likely to be on to something. Plus they don't come across like bullshit artists trying to sell me something.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like morondog's post
19-05-2012, 05:43 AM
 
RE: God or Nothing
(19-05-2012 12:12 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Yet, How, What, Who, When, Where, and most importantly Why would there be one who gets his jollies from playing hide and seek from a natural universe that can be explained without resorting to a deity?



A. Why are you anthropomorphizing God? It's not about getting "jollies." Besides if it's true that nothing is the default state, then God is clearly evident.

B. How do you do that? How do you explain the universe without resorting to a deity. Just let me know how matter and energy came out of nothing--real nothing, not Lawrence Strauss's type of nothing, which is really just empty physical space.
Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Egor's post
19-05-2012, 06:08 AM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2012 08:04 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: God or Nothing
"absolute nothingness" is a philosophical construct. It is not observed in this universe, empirically. Nice idea. Not proven. What goes on elsewhere, (other universes, or extra-universal) is yet to be observed and discovered. Just wait. The fabric of spacetime is seething with Dark Energy and Dark Matter, and who knows what else. The universe is expanding. We are still figuring out why. Just the fact that it's a "fabric" means it's not nothing.

God of the Gaps, yet again. Projected to fill a psychological NEED, (see below Angele) to explain and find patterns in Homo Sapiens' environment.

Athropomorphic projection, yet again. The answer, (as Girly tried to tell you), is in part, the Anthropic Princple.

"So, when you say you're an atheist. what you really mean is that the universe has always existed--for all eternity for no reason at all."

a. no. absolutely 100% false. Complete, and utter misunderstanding.

b. the universe began at the the Big Bang

c. dimensions of spacetime began at the Big Bang. Please, learn about Singularities.

d. "all eternity" without spacetime is a meaningless linguistic string, (just as "absolute nothingness" is). There is no "eternity"..(infinte time), "before" time began.

e. The universe does not owe me a meaning. "Purpose" is also a philosophical construct, psychological crutch/reference point, TOTALLY culturally dependant. The "purpose" is to confuse me, since little boy god likes to play mean games.

f. The universe is not necessarily intuitive.

g. rehash of First Cause. No reason can't be Infinite Regression. Could be digital. Could be Aunt Mathilda. Demanding complete expanation of everything, right now, is more childish tantrum than anything else.

Have a great day.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Bucky Ball's post
19-05-2012, 06:42 AM
RE: God or Nothing
The concept of a god, or supreme being who is in charge, has been around since people started wanting their questions answered.

Where does the rain come from? It's not always raining...sometimes it doesn't rain for weeks, why. Man had to figure out why back when they didn't have the scientific skills, equipment, or knowledge to answer the question. Man doesn't like unknowns, he needs an answer. So it must be a rain god. This god gives rain for drinking and so the plants we eat will grow and the animals can survive. When there is not rain and it's desperately needed but not forthcoming, man decided they must appease the god who must be angry with them and is punishing them. So they pray, they sing, they beat drums and dance, they go so far as to offer animal and human sacrifices. When the rain finally comes, as it always will, they chalk it up to the rain god answering their pleas for rain.

Does a god really make sense...to people who don't know better it does. Now we have the knowledge of how weather systems work.

Replace rain with nearly anything. When the answer is unknown, man creates a god (or some other supernatural entity or force)to fill in that missing piece. Gods are created by man, which is why so many of the gods of the past and present look like man in drawings, painting, descriptions. Notice that list doesn't contain photos...he doesn't show up for photo shoots so that there is real evidence.

Does a god exist, or did he ever? I don't have 100% proof that one didn't. But I also don't have 100% proof that he did or does.

Unknowns are covered by the creation and belief in a god for some people. That's where the whole faith thing comes in. Belief in an unseen god that controls what we can see but we don't understand. But that doesn't make it fact.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Anjele's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: