God's Irrelevance
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27-07-2015, 08:13 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(27-07-2015 07:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 07:38 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  A con man is a con man, regardless of calling him a preacher...

I know you like to believe that most or all preachers, are conmen and tricksters, but this is never really the case. Many are honest, kind men, who truly believe their convictions. While there will always be Fred Phelps in the world, there will also be the Oscar Romeros, the Dietrich Bonhoeffers, Rev. Kings, William Wilberforces, Tim Kellers as well.

Whether they truly believe their convictions and teachings does not matter as they are still liars, and influence/infect the gullible masses with false hope and the denial of real knowledge. It is a fake crutch used to fill in emotional needs. It is in fact irrelevant what you believe in to get you through the day, but it is obviously not needed to a whole bunch of happy skeptics here.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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27-07-2015, 08:26 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(27-07-2015 07:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 07:38 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  A con man is a con man, regardless of calling him a preacher...

I know you like to believe that most or all preachers, are conmen and tricksters, but this is never really the case. Many are honest, kind men, who truly believe their convictions. While there will always be Fred Phelps in the world, there will also be the Oscar Romeros, the Dietrich Bonhoeffers, Rev. Kings, William Wilberforces, Tim Kellers as well.


Do you laugh at those folks who think Harry Potter is real????

Bet you do.....

Wouldn't you think that somebody trying to convince others that Harry Potter was real, was a major league dumbass???

Bet you would.

That's exactly what you look like to me, and probably more than a few others here.....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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27-07-2015, 08:38 AM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2015 08:42 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: God's Irrelevance
(27-07-2015 08:13 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Whether they truly believe their convictions and teachings does not matter as they are still liars, and influence/infect the gullible masses with false hope and the denial of real knowledge.

No, they could only be liars if they were deliberately attempting to deceive someone. They have to know that what they are peddling is false. My friend may attempt to pass along some health tip, which she unknowingly received from a bias source, which may just be false, but she might not realize it. She's not liar, unless she knew it was false, and tried to peddle it anyways.

The atheists philosopher Alex Rosenberg attempts to sell a very strict from of physicalism, a sort of anti-common sense naturalism, he may a fool, and peddling the absurd, but I wouldn't call him a liar.

Quote:It is a fake crutch used to fill in emotional needs. It is in fact irrelevant what you believe in to get you through the day, but it is obviously not needed to a whole bunch of happy skeptics here.

If the world is truly formed in the way a naturalist claims it is, than there is no one size fits all solution for anybody. I think a claim that suggests that skeptics and atheists live happy lives, that religious people should desire to emulate, if they desire happiness, is a lie. Perhaps it makes you happier than if you were a believer. But happiness and truth being interwoven is not a fact of physics., a delusion can work just the same.

And if you're claiming you prefer truth to happiness, in world of void of any meaning or significance, than we should wonder who is truly delusional here.
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27-07-2015, 08:47 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
They may genuinely believe they aren't full of shit but they are still profiting greatly, and if you think that isn't a factor, even subconsciously, you're just as pathetic.
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27-07-2015, 08:56 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(27-07-2015 08:26 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Do you laugh at those folks who think Harry Potter is real????

Bet you do.....

Wouldn't you think that somebody trying to convince others that Harry Potter was real, was a major league dumbass???

No, I wouldn't think they were a dumbass. If that someone was child, than it just might be expected that they held such views. If they were adult, I'd wonder why they believe this? Perhaps they were bipolar, suffered from visual and auditory hallucinations, or etc...

Quote:Bet you would. That's exactly what you look like to me, and probably more than a few others here.....

No, I wouldn't. Because I don't harbor the same sort of contempt for people that you seem so dependent on. I don't even feel much contempt for you, even though you might feel such contempt for me. In fact I'd wonder about your own contempt, and be doubtful that it has as much to do with the thing you target it towards, than you believe.
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27-07-2015, 08:59 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(27-07-2015 08:47 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  They may genuinely believe they aren't full of shit but they are still profiting greatly, and if you think that isn't a factor, even subconsciously, you're just as pathetic.

I didn't know there was a great deal of profit in ministry. Those rich pastors driving around in fancy cars, with their big mansions are the exceptions not the norms. Studying theology is likely to be as profitable for most folks as studying philosophy, or art history. I'd likely find you working at the local Starbucks, than Rodeo Drive.
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27-07-2015, 09:02 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(27-07-2015 08:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 08:13 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Whether they truly believe their convictions and teachings does not matter as they are still liars, and influence/infect the gullible masses with false hope and the denial of real knowledge.

No, they could only be liars if they were deliberately attempting to deceive someone. They have to know that what they are peddling is false. My friend may attempt to pass along some health tip, which she unknowingly received from a bias source, which may just be false, but she might not realize it. She's not liar, unless she knew it was false, and tried to peddle it anyways.

The atheists philosopher Alex Rosenberg attempts to sell a very strict from of physicalism, a sort of anti-common sense naturalism, he may a fool, and peddling the absurd, but I wouldn't call him a liar.

Quote:It is a fake crutch used to fill in emotional needs. It is in fact irrelevant what you believe in to get you through the day, but it is obviously not needed to a whole bunch of happy skeptics here.

If the world is truly formed in the way a naturalist claims it is, than there is no one size fits all solution for anybody. I think a claim that suggests that skeptics and atheists live happy lives, that religious people should desire to emulate, if they desire happiness, is a lie. Perhaps it makes you happier than if you were a believer. But happiness and truth being interwoven is not a fact of physics., a delusion can work just the same.

And if you're claiming you prefer truth to happiness, in world of void of any meaning or significance, than we should wonder who is truly delusional here.

Yes they are liars, and your friend would be a liar. If she really believed that a tbsp of drain cleaner in your morning juice was good for digestive health, and she told you this, and you then informed me of this healthy trick, you would be a liar and she would be a liar - not a difficult concept. One can knowingly lie and unknowingly spread lies, which makes one a liar on both counts. Why do you defend the teaching and communicating of the untrue?

And you should prefer the truth above all, and find happiness bound by those truths. There are plenty of folks in the halls of mental health institutions, or who are under the influence of mind altering drugs that are undoubtedly happy, but I would rather know the truth in that I cannot fly, or converse with a chair, or see pink unicorns and dead relatives.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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27-07-2015, 09:12 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(27-07-2015 08:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 08:47 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  They may genuinely believe they aren't full of shit but they are still profiting greatly, and if you think that isn't a factor, even subconsciously, you're just as pathetic.

I didn't know there was a great deal of profit in ministry. Those rich pastors driving around in fancy cars, with their big mansions are the exceptions not the norms. Studying theology is likely to be as profitable for most folks as studying philosophy, or art history. I'd likely find you working at the local Starbucks, than Rodeo Drive.

That's not the case in my neck of the woods.

The last church I attended was run by a family of about 10 or so members through 3 generations. All of them of legal driving age drove new Cadillac SUVs or luxury sedans, wore fancy suits, and lived in sizeable homes. None of them were employed outside of the church.

The pastor was a genuinely nice guy and I believe he was legit in his convictions but its to hard to resist the temptation as his flock grew and the money started piling up.
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27-07-2015, 09:14 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(27-07-2015 08:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 08:26 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Do you laugh at those folks who think Harry Potter is real????

Bet you do.....

Wouldn't you think that somebody trying to convince others that Harry Potter was real, was a major league dumbass???

No, I wouldn't think they were a dumbass. If that someone was child, than it just might be expected that they held such views. If they were adult, I'd wonder why they believe this? Perhaps they were bipolar, suffered from visual and auditory hallucinations, or etc...

And how do you think that child came to believe the lie? Would an adult be responsible? If an adult taught a child a lie they would be "bipolar" or "hallucinating"? Would preachers be then suffering from depression or hallucinations when they teach concepts contradictory to modern science - like magic?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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27-07-2015, 10:26 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(27-07-2015 09:14 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  And how do you think that child came to believe the lie? Would an adult be responsible?

A false belief, doesn't necessary equal a lie. How does child acquire a false belief? Probably the same way everybody else does. Perhaps we hold a variety of false beliefs even now as adults, many them may not even be supernatural ones. Perhaps you hold a variety of them too, without being aware of it.

Some of these might not even be acquired by indoctrination by others, some of them may be a product of common sense, of intuitive assumptions, when in fact counter-intuitive assumptions may be true. A variety of research seems to suggests that people are intuitive dualist, that children even those raised in non-religious households hold teleological beliefs. We might be predisposed to some vague religious beliefs, rather than some form materialism. And that this disposition is what makes folks prone to accept more formed religious worldviews, that gets passed along from generation to generation.

Who should we put the blame on for this? Perhaps the a condition, that does make as particularly prone to distinguish truths from falsity, that favors common sense over hard, counter intuitive facts, etc....
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