God's Irrelevance
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27-07-2015, 02:17 PM
RE: God's Irrelevance
Yeah youve got your nice friendly vicars on one end and your Fred Phelps on the other.

Which is why it should be treated the same as drugs. Marijuana is pretty harmless in small doses but can be regarded as a stepping stone to Cocaine.

Vicars are also pretty harmless in small doses...but they are a stepping stone to Westboro.
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28-07-2015, 05:57 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(27-07-2015 10:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 09:14 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  And how do you think that child came to believe the lie? Would an adult be responsible?

A false belief, doesn't necessary equal a lie. How does child acquire a false belief? Probably the same way everybody else does. Perhaps we hold a variety of false beliefs even now as adults, many them may not even be supernatural ones. Perhaps you hold a variety of them too, without being aware of it.

Some of these might not even be acquired by indoctrination by others, some of them may be a product of common sense, of intuitive assumptions, when in fact counter-intuitive assumptions may be true. A variety of research seems to suggests that people are intuitive dualist, that children even those raised in non-religious households hold teleological beliefs. We might be predisposed to some vague religious beliefs, rather than some form materialism. And that this disposition is what makes folks prone to accept more formed religious worldviews, that gets passed along from generation to generation.

Who should we put the blame on for this? Perhaps the a condition, that does make as particularly prone to distinguish truths from falsity, that favors common sense over hard, counter intuitive facts, etc....

If a child believes in Santa, it believes in a lie. If it is not true and it is presented to you as truth or you somehow come to the conclusion that it is true, it becomes a lie.

You don't necessarily have blame someone else.

In the case of the child, the blame is split between the adult and the child since it can't gather information on its own yet. If it is reading a book, it's its own fault - overactive imagination. But still, it is not a bad thing to believe in Santa or Harry Potter; it doesn't effect its life to the extent where it has to 'make time for Santa' or do something in his favour. Santa and Harry Potter don't require special attention.

God, on the other hand, is a completely different story. It sets values, morals, different beliefs about the natural world and all of them are false. This problem deals not just with your decision to believe something but, in fact, it acts upon all your decisions in life. It absolutely effects each aspect of your existence. This is why there are those of us who stand against such destructive forces. It is like Leonardo da Vinci said, 'He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.' This is my philosophy concerning my activity as an atheist.

It makes no difference: you could be the greatest person alive, but if you are preaching in a church, your words are still lies and they need to be abolished.

"I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way." - Carl Sagan
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28-07-2015, 06:05 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(28-07-2015 05:57 AM)rezider Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 10:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A false belief, doesn't necessary equal a lie. How does child acquire a false belief? Probably the same way everybody else does. Perhaps we hold a variety of false beliefs even now as adults, many them may not even be supernatural ones. Perhaps you hold a variety of them too, without being aware of it.

Some of these might not even be acquired by indoctrination by others, some of them may be a product of common sense, of intuitive assumptions, when in fact counter-intuitive assumptions may be true. A variety of research seems to suggests that people are intuitive dualist, that children even those raised in non-religious households hold teleological beliefs. We might be predisposed to some vague religious beliefs, rather than some form materialism. And that this disposition is what makes folks prone to accept more formed religious worldviews, that gets passed along from generation to generation.

Who should we put the blame on for this? Perhaps the a condition, that does make as particularly prone to distinguish truths from falsity, that favors common sense over hard, counter intuitive facts, etc....

If a child believes in Santa, it believes in a lie. If it is not true and it is presented to you as truth or you somehow come to the conclusion that it is true, it becomes a lie.

You don't necessarily have blame someone else.

In the case of the child, the blame is split between the adult and the child since it can't gather information on its own yet. If it is reading a book, it's its own fault - overactive imagination. But still, it is not a bad thing to believe in Santa or Harry Potter; it doesn't effect its life to the extent where it has to 'make time for Santa' or do something in his favour. Santa and Harry Potter don't require special attention.

God, on the other hand, is a completely different story. It sets values, morals, different beliefs about the natural world and all of them are false. This problem deals not just with your decision to believe something but, in fact, it acts upon all your decisions in life. It absolutely effects each aspect of your existence. This is why there are those of us who stand against such destructive forces. It is like Leonardo da Vinci said, 'He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.' This is my philosophy concerning my activity as an atheist.

Are all mistaken beliefs, lies? If not what distinguishes between holding merely a mistaken belief as opposed to a lie?
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28-07-2015, 06:13 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(28-07-2015 06:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are all mistaken beliefs, lies? If not what distinguishes between holding merely a mistaken belief as opposed to a lie?

A sincerely held mistaken belief is still detrimental. If only we had a method for distinguishing truth from falsehood!

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-07-2015, 06:21 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
I would say many preachers are believers but there's also quotes from preachers who leave or went to seminary and do other work who acknowledge they know many active preachers who feel they could never tell their parishioners the things they actually know of the holy books & ways of the church/god according to their stance. There is an element of withholding information in a kinda lie in that regard.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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28-07-2015, 06:37 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(28-07-2015 06:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 05:57 AM)rezider Wrote:  If a child believes in Santa, it believes in a lie. If it is not true and it is presented to you as truth or you somehow come to the conclusion that it is true, it becomes a lie.

You don't necessarily have blame someone else.

In the case of the child, the blame is split between the adult and the child since it can't gather information on its own yet. If it is reading a book, it's its own fault - overactive imagination. But still, it is not a bad thing to believe in Santa or Harry Potter; it doesn't effect its life to the extent where it has to 'make time for Santa' or do something in his favour. Santa and Harry Potter don't require special attention.

God, on the other hand, is a completely different story. It sets values, morals, different beliefs about the natural world and all of them are false. This problem deals not just with your decision to believe something but, in fact, it acts upon all your decisions in life. It absolutely effects each aspect of your existence. This is why there are those of us who stand against such destructive forces. It is like Leonardo da Vinci said, 'He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.' This is my philosophy concerning my activity as an atheist.

Are all mistaken beliefs, lies? If not what distinguishes between holding merely a mistaken belief as opposed to a lie?

LIE
noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood (I emphasize on this).
Synonyms: prevarication, falsification.
Antonyms: truth.

'The most dangerous liars are those who think they are telling the truth.' A 'mistaken belief', as you put it, is a lie (mistaken belief = lie) despite your intentions or knowledge. You don't distinguish between them.

If you believe that you are absolutely correct in stating that 2+2=5, upon realizing it is incorrect, do you say, 'Oh, well, it was a mistaken belief.'? If you've committed a crime and have said that in court... you would've been held guilty. 'Ignorantia non est argumentum. (Ignorance is not an argument.)' (Spinoza) A lie is still a lie, even if you aren't aware of it.

"I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way." - Carl Sagan
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28-07-2015, 06:47 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(28-07-2015 06:37 AM)rezider Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 06:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are all mistaken beliefs, lies? If not what distinguishes between holding merely a mistaken belief as opposed to a lie?

LIE
noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood (I emphasize on this).
Synonyms: prevarication, falsification.
Antonyms: truth.

'The most dangerous liars are those who think they are telling the truth.' A 'mistaken belief', as you put it, is a lie (mistaken belief = lie) despite your intentions or knowledge. You don't distinguish between them.

If you believe that you are absolutely correct in stating that 2+2=5, upon realizing it is incorrect, do you say, 'Oh, well, it was a mistaken belief.'? If you've committed a crime and have said that in court... you would've been held guilty. 'Ignorantia non est argumentum. (Ignorance is not an argument.)' (Spinoza) A lie is still a lie, even if you aren't aware of it.

Ah, so yesterday when I thought I left my sunglasses in the car, and after going to my car and realizing it wasn't there, I wasn't just mistaken, I believed a lie?

Or when I believed that "C" was the correct answer to a multiple choice question, only to discover after it was graded that I was wrong, that at the time I believed a lie?

So when a particular scientific claim that's currently held as accurate, is latter after some more extensive testing shown to be inaccurate, false, that means the early view was a lie? And those peddling it were liars?

I'm guessing at this point you'll likely retract a bit, or perhaps dig your heels in a little more?
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28-07-2015, 06:50 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
Your subconscious and memory lied to your conscious mind about the glasses Wink

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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28-07-2015, 07:02 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(28-07-2015 06:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 06:37 AM)rezider Wrote:  LIE
noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood (I emphasize on this).
Synonyms: prevarication, falsification.
Antonyms: truth.

'The most dangerous liars are those who think they are telling the truth.' A 'mistaken belief', as you put it, is a lie (mistaken belief = lie) despite your intentions or knowledge. You don't distinguish between them.

If you believe that you are absolutely correct in stating that 2+2=5, upon realizing it is incorrect, do you say, 'Oh, well, it was a mistaken belief.'? If you've committed a crime and have said that in court... you would've been held guilty. 'Ignorantia non est argumentum. (Ignorance is not an argument.)' (Spinoza) A lie is still a lie, even if you aren't aware of it.

Ah, so yesterday when I thought I left my sunglasses in the car, and after going to my car and realizing it wasn't there, I wasn't just mistaken, I believed a lie?

Or when I believed that "C" was the correct answer to a multiple choice question, only to discover after it was graded that I was wrong, that at the time I believed a lie?

So when a particular scientific claim that's currently held as accurate, is latter after some more extensive testing shown to be inaccurate, false, that means the early view was a lie? And those peddling it were liars?

I'm guessing at this point you'll likely retract a bit, or perhaps dig your heels in a little more?

Yes, I don't see what's the problem. You've said an incorrect thing, thinking and claiming to be true. It turned out it wasn't true - a falsehood.

You've heard this phrase in countless movies: 'I've been living a lie.' When scientists first believed that the universe was eternal, they were 'living a lie.' You forgot that your glasses were at spot A, so you made an incorrect assumption that they are at spot B. If you don't like the word, just use a different one. It makes no difference.

"I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way." - Carl Sagan
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28-07-2015, 07:07 AM
RE: God's Irrelevance
(28-07-2015 07:02 AM)rezider Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 06:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Ah, so yesterday when I thought I left my sunglasses in the car, and after going to my car and realizing it wasn't there, I wasn't just mistaken, I believed a lie?

Or when I believed that "C" was the correct answer to a multiple choice question, only to discover after it was graded that I was wrong, that at the time I believed a lie?

So when a particular scientific claim that's currently held as accurate, is latter after some more extensive testing shown to be inaccurate, false, that means the early view was a lie? And those peddling it were liars?

I'm guessing at this point you'll likely retract a bit, or perhaps dig your heels in a little more?

Yes, I don't see what's the problem. You've said an incorrect thing, thinking and claiming to be true. It turned out it wasn't true - a falsehood.

You've heard this phrase in countless movies: 'I've been living a lie.' When scientists first believed that the universe was eternal, they were 'living a lie.' You forgot that your glasses were at spot A, so you made an incorrect assumption that they are at spot B. If you don't like the word, just use a different one. It makes no difference.

And they are not lies if you emphasize the other parts of the definition you offered:

"LIE
noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth"

If a lie requires deliberate intent, intentionality, than none of the above examples would be lies.

You agree correct?

If you don't than you're a liar. Smile
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