God's Laws
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18-03-2016, 09:16 AM
RE: God's Laws
(16-03-2016 10:58 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 09:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I didn't have children for social standards or social pressures. I love my children. I know atheists love their children too, and not just in chemical bonding ways... from the "heart".

No, people in Hell didn't ask to exist. But they are self-determinant and can get out of Hell proactively. You may not have asked to have been enslaved. But if offered the opportunity to escape... the Bible explains that we in bondage to sin are enslaved by sin, but have a firm way of escape.

You are not your description of having multiple kids because you "know" one will die. You're just a person in a far better off society than the majority of medcine lacking cultures that existed despite direct contact where god could of helped told them that instead of laws that helped noone as they were already written out in surrounding cultures beforehand. Yes, love comes from the brain Qness.

And if you were to embrace the reality that the bible says that calvinists get, those people in hell really didn't have a choice. You're just on a powertrip to desire this mindset thinking people do, but really this "freewill" isn't something you actually have. Neither do others, through scientific means as we are seemingly just as automatic as any other species and that's what seems to bother free will believing religionists.

But still you never responded to anything outside of saying "love". Why didn't god start over apart form the "jesus" scenario you descripe as love. Instead actually kill all humans in the flood & start over and love that way. It's still LOVE to start over and LOVE for noah & his sons to go to heaven and Love to have perfect beings in a utopia again... it was LOVE for adam and Eve. Love can be used ANY possible way at all by an omnipotent being.

What makes YOU think you KNOW gods limit and gods reasons and actual actions?

I find the fact that atheists don't know SOUL music has SOUL discouraging.

And as for love, the fact that atheists understand wife-husband or father-child LOVE as chemical and fleeting and unreal and unspiritual, a great reason NOT to deconvert.

Change this website, would you? It could read like this:

The Thinking Atheist
We Don't Believe In Souls and Love
thethinkingatheist.com

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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18-03-2016, 09:20 AM
RE: God's Laws
(16-03-2016 12:15 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ..as well as a bit rude
You saying that atheists cant be moral without your little book, completely fail to lay out your moral standard when asked, but i am the rude one. How classy!

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Did every drowned person save Noahs family deserve to drown?
**Drowning is a means of death. All persons deserve to die. All have sinned.
How do you know all have sinned? What sin(s) where those people guilty of, to deserve death?

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Would you go and rape and kill if your god wouldnt order you otherwise?
**No.
Why not?

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But I have something you have, a conscience, which is responsive to the promptings of God. Even an atheist has a conscience that God interacts with.
Thats irrelevant as well as a wild ass assertion and will be dismissed if you cant offer anything to substantiate that.

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Is killing immoral, or does it depend on who does the killing?
**Here is a big problem for the atheist. The Bible states that state-sanctioned execution, of say, murderers, is killing that isn't murder. I have no problem with that. Many people who aren't evangelical don't, either.
I wasnt asking what kind of killing (execution) can be sanctioned, but if killing can be sanctioned depending on who does the killing.

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But we must talk at some point about whether you have some kind of socially-constructed morals, because evolution informs us both that survivability of the general population is enhanced when you kill killers!
No we dont, because im not interested in what you think evolution informs us to do. I am interested in what your moral standard is.

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Is infinite punishment for a finite crime just and moral?
**Absolutely not. However, Hell is eternal punishment that is NOT infinite.
Why not?
Please explain the difference between "eternal" and "infinite". Which part of "eternal" is finite?

(16-03-2016 09:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What is your moral standard (not the one of someone else you blindly follow)?
**I had the same standards you had before I was a believer, I'm sure. Don't hurt other people, which is less than treat people as you'd like to be treated. Do what makes you feel good. Live and let live. Now I say, live and let di-eeeeeeee. Sorry, a bit of Sir Paul slipped in, there. I know where my moral standards come from, and it's not good enough for me to say, "Evolution says do whatever I must to survive, but I won't kill people to get ahead because society has constructed so that blah-blah-blah..."!
I am not interested in what standards you had as a non-believer. I am also not interested in what you think evolution says (see above). I am interested in your moral standard as a believer. You say "I know where my moral standards come from", so please tell. What is your moral standard? Where does it come from?

I am still waiting.

You are being well-reasoned now. When you were being rude before, I said so. Thanks for not being rude with your recent post. (If TTAtheists will keep saying I deserve their rudeness, when I most certainly don't, I reserve the right to point out when they and you are being rude. Okay?)

My moral standards come from God and most especially and most often, as revealed in the scriptures.

And YOU have an inner voice or an "id" or you are utterly abnormal. Statements like "prove I have a conscience!" show why atheists should not be a juror, judge, President or any other profession where citizens demand (and hope and pray) that they have and bear and are tender toward their conscience!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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18-03-2016, 09:49 AM
RE: God's Laws
You seem to have missed to answer my questions. Please try again.

Quote:My moral standards come from God and most especially and most often, as revealed in the scriptures
So you are just following orders and proclamations? Thats not being moral.

But lets continue anyhow. I will add more questions if you dont mind (i am a very curious person).
What values are gods "moral standards" based on?
Are those moral standards absolute? Like "thou shalt not kill" for example.
So, you dont support moral relativism?
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18-03-2016, 11:42 AM
RE: God's Laws
(18-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And as for love, the fact that atheists understand wife-husband or father-child LOVE as chemical and fleeting and unreal and unspiritual, a great reason NOT to deconvert.
Once again you misstate the situation. This is not even a strawman, it's an out and out falsehood. A couple actually.

First of all, love is chemical. All of our thoughts and emotions are chemical. They can be changed with drugs, physical damage, deterioration and other factors.

Secondly the love that atheists feel is no different than that of the religious. Would you like to play the statistics game? How many religious couples break up/cheat/divorce/abuse? Fleeting and unreal? That is truly pathetic.

Unspiritual? This is true. And until you demonstrate a scientific method for proving the spiritual, it is the default position. It is the only honest position.

And there is only one honest reason to de-convert: If you are honestly and sincerely convinced of the truth of the new belief and the untruth of your previous belief. I realize honesty is a foreign concept to you, but maybe it will sink in eventually.

(18-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Change this website, would you? It could read like this:

The Thinking Atheist
We Don't Believe In Souls and Love
thethinkingatheist.com

Jeebus doesn't like it when you lie Q.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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18-03-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: God's Laws
(18-03-2016 09:20 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 12:15 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  You saying that atheists cant be moral without your little book, completely fail to lay out your moral standard when asked, but i am the rude one. How classy!

How do you know all have sinned? What sin(s) where those people guilty of, to deserve death?

Why not?

Thats irrelevant as well as a wild ass assertion and will be dismissed if you cant offer anything to substantiate that.

I wasnt asking what kind of killing (execution) can be sanctioned, but if killing can be sanctioned depending on who does the killing.

No we dont, because im not interested in what you think evolution informs us to do. I am interested in what your moral standard is.

Why not?
Please explain the difference between "eternal" and "infinite". Which part of "eternal" is finite?

I am not interested in what standards you had as a non-believer. I am also not interested in what you think evolution says (see above). I am interested in your moral standard as a believer. You say "I know where my moral standards come from", so please tell. What is your moral standard? Where does it come from?

I am still waiting.

You are being well-reasoned now. When you were being rude before, I said so. Thanks for not being rude with your recent post. (If TTAtheists will keep saying I deserve their rudeness, when I most certainly don't, I reserve the right to point out when they and you are being rude. Okay?)

My moral standards come from God and most especially and most often, as revealed in the scriptures.

And YOU have an inner voice or an "id" or you are utterly abnormal. Statements like "prove I have a conscience!" show why atheists should not be a juror, judge, President or any other profession where citizens demand (and hope and pray) that they have and bear and are tender toward their conscience!

You can't say your moral standards come from God and scriptures when there are so many immoral verses in the Bible any truly moral person would dismiss. Do you think it's moral to own slaves? Do you think the many Christians in this country who owned slaved and used the Bible to defend it were good people?

I have already given you links to articles that explain morality without God you clearly didn't read but it all boils down to evolutionary instincts, we feel good when we do good things for a reason and as humans progress we will learn more about ethics and social contracts to form a stronger foundation for morals and law without using religion.

Let me give you a couple verses to test your moral objectivity with:

James 4:11-12 "11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?"

and

Romans 2:1-3 "1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?"

You say an atheist shouldn't be able to serve on a jury or as a judge, this Bible verse clearly states only God can judge your fellow man, not you. You are only a human and can't judge the morality of your "neighbor". Your statements are in direct conflict with your moral standards, the scriptures of the Bible. Do you think judging all the atheists on this forum is a good thing even though your objective moral law forbids it?

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18-03-2016, 01:14 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2016 01:19 PM by SitaSky.)
RE: God's Laws
(18-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 10:58 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You are not your description of having multiple kids because you "know" one will die. You're just a person in a far better off society than the majority of medcine lacking cultures that existed despite direct contact where god could of helped told them that instead of laws that helped noone as they were already written out in surrounding cultures beforehand. Yes, love comes from the brain Qness.

And if you were to embrace the reality that the bible says that calvinists get, those people in hell really didn't have a choice. You're just on a powertrip to desire this mindset thinking people do, but really this "freewill" isn't something you actually have. Neither do others, through scientific means as we are seemingly just as automatic as any other species and that's what seems to bother free will believing religionists.

But still you never responded to anything outside of saying "love". Why didn't god start over apart form the "jesus" scenario you descripe as love. Instead actually kill all humans in the flood & start over and love that way. It's still LOVE to start over and LOVE for noah & his sons to go to heaven and Love to have perfect beings in a utopia again... it was LOVE for adam and Eve. Love can be used ANY possible way at all by an omnipotent being.

What makes YOU think you KNOW gods limit and gods reasons and actual actions?

I find the fact that atheists don't know SOUL music has SOUL discouraging.

And as for love, the fact that atheists understand wife-husband or father-child LOVE as chemical and fleeting and unreal and unspiritual, a great reason NOT to deconvert.

Change this website, would you? It could read like this:

The Thinking Atheist
We Don't Believe In Souls and Love
thethinkingatheist.com

I'm not understanding how you can say "The fact that atheist's understand...blah blah blah." You are making a general statement about all atheists and it's not even true. Many atheists are spiritual and still believe in a soul and even fate, karma, etc. that may not be proven by science but they still think it exists.

I think you are being blinded by all the people on this forum who prefer science and logic when in a debate but not all atheists are the same. I wouldn't judge all Christians based on the things you have said since I know they are all different.

I certainly do believe in love and I do love my fellow man but of course my love has standards just like everyone, I'm not going to love a serial rapist or a murderer for example. But, since you think love is something that is transcendental let's see what the Bible has to say about it:

Matthew 34“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35“For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39“He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Here Jesus states he didn't come to Earth to bring peace but war, he will drive families apart and he demands that all people love him more than they love their own families, if not they aren't worthy of him. Is that what love is? How is that a moral guideline? Yes you can love just not too much, not more than you love God. Why should I love an invisible being that has never even had the courtesy to say "Hello" to me once my entire life more than my family/friends? Why should anyone love Jesus more than their kids? How would that make their lives better in any way?

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22-03-2016, 09:33 AM
RE: God's Laws
(18-03-2016 09:49 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  You seem to have missed to answer my questions. Please try again.

Quote:My moral standards come from God and most especially and most often, as revealed in the scriptures
So you are just following orders and proclamations? Thats not being moral.

But lets continue anyhow. I will add more questions if you dont mind (i am a very curious person).
What values are gods "moral standards" based on?
Are those moral standards absolute? Like "thou shalt not kill" for example.
So, you dont support moral relativism?

No, I spend time meditating on possible outcomes, ramifications, etc. I think about the Law often. The Law is logical.

God's moral standards proceed from His character. We both know "good people" including atheists whose standards don't come from a book but from their conscience. God is loving and just and teaches us His conscience, His standards.

God's standards are absolute, and including tempering justice with mercy--therefore, Christ died, therefore, not every capital crime is to be punished with killing--God's word allows for self-defense and etc.

Moral relativism claims that no moral standard(s) can be privileged or "better than" all others. I respectfully disagree. The Bible's moral standards are exemplary and revelatory. An example--the eye for and eye law. Atheists say, "Cruel!" But in the ANE, the eye for an eye was the upper LIMIT on the punishment the judge/jury MIGHT impose. Rather than a vendetta, common in the ANE--you killed my dad, I kill your whole family--the judge could order the murderer executed--if justice went so far.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-03-2016, 09:37 AM
RE: God's Laws
(18-03-2016 01:02 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 09:20 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are being well-reasoned now. When you were being rude before, I said so. Thanks for not being rude with your recent post. (If TTAtheists will keep saying I deserve their rudeness, when I most certainly don't, I reserve the right to point out when they and you are being rude. Okay?)

My moral standards come from God and most especially and most often, as revealed in the scriptures.

And YOU have an inner voice or an "id" or you are utterly abnormal. Statements like "prove I have a conscience!" show why atheists should not be a juror, judge, President or any other profession where citizens demand (and hope and pray) that they have and bear and are tender toward their conscience!

You can't say your moral standards come from God and scriptures when there are so many immoral verses in the Bible any truly moral person would dismiss. Do you think it's moral to own slaves? Do you think the many Christians in this country who owned slaved and used the Bible to defend it were good people?

I have already given you links to articles that explain morality without God you clearly didn't read but it all boils down to evolutionary instincts, we feel good when we do good things for a reason and as humans progress we will learn more about ethics and social contracts to form a stronger foundation for morals and law without using religion.

Let me give you a couple verses to test your moral objectivity with:

James 4:11-12 "11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?"

and

Romans 2:1-3 "1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?"

You say an atheist shouldn't be able to serve on a jury or as a judge, this Bible verse clearly states only God can judge your fellow man, not you. You are only a human and can't judge the morality of your "neighbor". Your statements are in direct conflict with your moral standards, the scriptures of the Bible. Do you think judging all the atheists on this forum is a good thing even though your objective moral law forbids it?

You wrote:

Quote:You can't say your moral standards come from God and scriptures when there are so many immoral verses in the Bible any truly moral person would dismiss.

I think a better statement is: "There are so many seemingly immoral verses in the Bible any truly moral person would ponder and grapple with."

I'm not opening my mind to some verses and shutting them to others. All have teachings for us!

The verses you've cited need to be added to other verses--the OT alone has at least six verses I can think of where God LOVES when believers judge. And there is the entire book of JUDGES. Take a look at Matthew 7, Romans 1's end before Romans 2, etc. carefully. Christians are both better qualified to judge and admonished to be non-judgmental persons. Is there a difference to parse? You bet there is. We all know people who make good judgments, and people who are judgmental. I seem super-judgmental at TTA, but that's because I daily have atheists asking and/or challenging me to make moral judgments!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-03-2016, 09:42 AM
RE: God's Laws
(18-03-2016 01:14 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I find the fact that atheists don't know SOUL music has SOUL discouraging.

And as for love, the fact that atheists understand wife-husband or father-child LOVE as chemical and fleeting and unreal and unspiritual, a great reason NOT to deconvert.

Change this website, would you? It could read like this:

The Thinking Atheist
We Don't Believe In Souls and Love
thethinkingatheist.com

I'm not understanding how you can say "The fact that atheist's understand...blah blah blah." You are making a general statement about all atheists and it's not even true. Many atheists are spiritual and still believe in a soul and even fate, karma, etc. that may not be proven by science but they still think it exists.

I think you are being blinded by all the people on this forum who prefer science and logic when in a debate but not all atheists are the same. I wouldn't judge all Christians based on the things you have said since I know they are all different.

I certainly do believe in love and I do love my fellow man but of course my love has standards just like everyone, I'm not going to love a serial rapist or a murderer for example. But, since you think love is something that is transcendental let's see what the Bible has to say about it:

Matthew 34“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35“For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39“He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Here Jesus states he didn't come to Earth to bring peace but war, he will drive families apart and he demands that all people love him more than they love their own families, if not they aren't worthy of him. Is that what love is? How is that a moral guideline? Yes you can love just not too much, not more than you love God. Why should I love an invisible being that has never even had the courtesy to say "Hello" to me once my entire life more than my family/friends? Why should anyone love Jesus more than their kids? How would that make their lives better in any way?

I judged atheists wrongly with my post? Please tell me which atheist you know who says soul music comes from deep within a person's SOUL.

How is it a moral guideline that we should love God who gave us life and fresh air and food more than our families, by comparison? How is it a moral guideline that I should love someone who died for me more than someone who took risks for me and fed me and clothed me?

Quote:Why should I love an invisible being that has never even had the courtesy to say "Hello" to me once my entire life more than my family/friends?

I love Shakespeare's mind, heart and words--never said hello to him. But I have his writings, his legacy. God is saying hello to you right now through me. But you are not a child, and have no right--no matter how embittered an atheist you might be someday--to get ticked off and say--I don't like all these ambassadors, Bible preachers, even presidential candidates, who tells me things about God... I'M IMPORTANT! I deserve not ambassadors but a personal God visit!

If God is a fraction of the size in scope and power you or I think he might be, please detail for me below why He should personally greet and visit you. Please also explain why He says in the Bible He hides Himself from sinners but YOU DESERVE a personal visit:

Reason 1:

Reason 2:

Reason 3:

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-03-2016, 10:13 AM
RE: God's Laws
(22-03-2016 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God's moral standards proceed from His character.
The only way we know anything about your god's character is the bible and the word of his chosen speakers.

The bible:
In Genesis your god kills almost everything on earth, including animals, plants, babies and unborn fetuses. In Exodus, your god hardens Pharaoh's heart, not allowing him to let the Jews go, then slaughters all the first born of Egypt. Lots of dead innocent babies there.

We continue with blood sacrifice, genital mutilation, slavery, rape, genocide.

Your god describes himself as vengeful, jealous and angry.

The loving jesus condemns everyone to an eternal torment, except those who worship him. Eternal, ultimate suffering for the decision that must be made in the equivalent of a microsecond. That's assuming that you even get to hear about jesus. Sorry unborn babies.

Moving right along, let's look at those who speak for god.

Moses?
Lot?
The clergy who supported modern slavery?
The pedophiles of the church?

I'm not seeing a lot of evidence for a loving god.

(22-03-2016 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Moral relativism claims that no moral standard(s) can be privileged or "better than" all others. I respectfully disagree. The Bible's moral standards are exemplary and revelatory.

So a woman is raped and she must marry her rapist.
Quote:Deuteronomy 22
22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

This is extremely revelatory about the character and quality of your god and his laws.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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