God's Laws
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23-03-2016, 11:47 AM
RE: God's Laws
Quote:The eternal punishment of Hell...isn't finite in duration, but it is finite in power/pain

Are you that dishonest on purpose? Do you really think this pathetic attempt at weaseling out will work on anyone in here, or up in heaven? Please dont insult our intellect by not even trying to refute properly. Remember: god is omniscient. He knows when you are lying, even when you dont admit it to yourself. Can you feel him watching you? Who are you trying to fool here?

Its irrelevant if the pain is infinite. It is particularly relevant how long it lasts.......for fucking ever.
Again: How is "for ever" not infinite?

Second:
I asked "How do you determine god is just?"
You say:
Quote:A simple reading of the Bible....shows God is loving and just
Once again, you are trying to insult our intellect, by not answering the question at all. Why this disrespect?
Again: On what basis do you judge god?

Quote:God is just and should punish sinners, so He punishes Christ for the love of mankind
You think its moral to punish someone for someone elses crimes?

Third: "thou shalt not kill"
You seem to have decided to just ignore that issue (as well). I will repeat it here, just to remind you. I am again asking you to resolve this contradiction of yours in your various statements......if you bother to be intellectually honest enough to answer at all.
The Q Continuum Wrote:God's standards are absolute
Deesse23 Wrote:Really? In your answer below you -and the bible- seem to have a completely different point of view
The Q Continuum Wrote:The Bible states that state-sanctioned execution, of say, murderers, is killing that isn't murder. I have no problem with that.

Four:
Deesse23 Wrote:Would you go and rape and kill if your god wouldnt order you otherwise?
The Q Continuum Wrote:**No.
Again: Why do you need "thou shalt not kill" if you wouldnt kill anyway?

Quote:2. I don't have to "make excuses" for slavery in a book that contains indentured servitude. I have to defend truth from atheists telling half-truths.
You are a despicable, dishonest piece of work. If id call you a piece of shit, it would be insulting to shit, because shit at least is honest enough to simply stink and doesnt claim it shines like gold.
See Fatbaldhobbits reply.

You have given up your human dignity for an immoral fantasy. Its hard to sink any deeper than that. Maybe only by being proud of it.....which you actually are.
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23-03-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: God's Laws
(23-03-2016 10:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 12:59 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I don't need to give 3 reasons why your God should visit me, I only have one but it's a good one.

First let's set up the premise and use the definition of God that every Christian has given me:God/Yahweh and his son Jesus are all loving, all knowing, all powerful and all merciful.

God divinely inspired a book about his works and teachings, this should be good enough for everyone to believe in him and yet it's not. It's not good enough for me so I guess he needs to try another tactic doesn't he? Not all humans are the same, we all learn in different ways, some people can't even read so do they just not get to go to Heaven because they couldn't' read the Bible? Is that merciful?

He knows just what it would take to make me believe, he is all knowing after all and he knows what kind of person I am. If he is truly all merciful and all loving he could look past my sin of not believing and would in fact feel obligated to do so and save me since he's also all good. Being all powerful there would be nothing stopping him from doing whatever it took to convince me, if anything if he was able to convince a hard core atheist like me in a way where I would feel inspired to go out and teach everyone he would gain even more converts, so it's a win-win for both of us. I guess he just doesn't care about saving souls? He's not all loving or all powerful? He doesn't know how to make all people believe in him? He's scared and "hiding" from the sinners who arguably need him the most. Hmm doesn't sound like a being worthy of worship, he seems pretty weak and flawed actually.

If that's not a good enough reason for God to pay me a personal visit and it doesn't have to be a visit, than I don't know what is. I would expect any good person to do whatever it takes to save someone they knew would be tortured, how can I expect any less from an all loving God? It's not like we can say "Well he wants us to choose freely." Well it's not a fair choice, I don't even know if he's real or if Heaven/Hell are real places so being a different kind of person than Q and the other believers does God just stop trying?

So to use your words "If God is a fraction of the size in scope and power you or I think he might be...." why can't he truly convince the 7 billion souls on this planet that he is real, wants to save them and give them the actual choice?

So it sounds like your only reason for God to visit YOU is YOU don't believe. How come I was able to believe without the necessity of a visit? Why do I have to believe without a visit but YOU get an easier path? That sounds unfair to me!

Reasons why YOU should get special treatment, above hundreds of millions of believers who've never met/seen God yet:

Reason 1:

Reason 2:

Reason 3:

I don't think you read one thing I wrote here. I already explained it thoroughly, we are working with the assumption that this being is all loving and all knowing and all powerful.

Your badly written Bible isn't good enough for me to believe, all the other believers who have come into contact with me have not been able to convince me. If your God is so all loving and all knowing he would surely know what it would take to make me believe and being all powerful he would be able to make it happen, being all good he would be obligated to do it.

I have heard a few conversion stories where someone was either an atheist or a non-practicing Christian who had an angel experience, near death chat with Jesus, etc. so why is it that God feels the need to grant a visit or at least a lucid dream/vision to some people but most everyone else just get's the Bible?

Fact is if your God seems totally fine with atheists existing and doesn't feel a need to do more to save their souls he is either not powerful enough to do so, doesn't care to or doesn't know how to. The only other option is he simply doesn't exist. I hear all the time that anything is possible through God, ok why can't he make me believe? Like I said it doesn't have to be a personal visit, it could be anything. It could be simply giving me the ability to understand the Bible even though I already do but if he can't do something that simple why would he be worth worshiping or seeking out? I have to go out of my way and disregard all my logic and reasoning to believe in him when he has done exactly nothing to deserve it.

Maybe your God is real and simply isn't all good or all powerful or all knowing, in that case he's not a God but simply a very powerful wizard . An all good being would do whatever it takes to save every person from eternal torture. Some people are easier than others, they just believe while others will prove more of a challenge, if your God can't meet that challenge he's weak and not a God.

Even teachers in a classroom understand all children learn differently, some need to read and take notes, some are more visual learners and need a video or a song. Is God not able to figure out something humans have already come to know? That we all need different stimuli to gain knowledge? He figures an old book that says bats are birds, the Earth is a disk and women are property is going to do just fine? If that's true than not only is your God not all good or powerful he's just very lazy, in that case he's still not worth believing in.

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23-03-2016, 12:35 PM
RE: God's Laws
(23-03-2016 10:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 01:08 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  The only thing your comment is proving is how contradictory and convoluted your holy book is, "Oh wait, you don't like that one part that is immoral and evil?..ok hold on...Here! I just found one that is totally the opposite and it's all nice and loving, see?"

Yeah I do see but that doesn't make any sense and it's still an immoral book that contradicts itself so much to the point of being almost impossible to decipher, just like all Christians you have to "grapple" with the meanings because why would an all knowing God give us a book that can be easily understood? No, that's not how you save souls, you have to make them work for it. You have to make them set aside their own personal moral values and scare them with the prospect of eternal torture. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Give me a break Q, I thought you could do better than this. I have read the Bible as a believer and I "grappled" with the immoral verses and nothing made me feel better and then I realized "Wait, this book was written by ignorant sheep herders during the Bronze Age, I don't have to ponder this at all, it's all myth and fantasy." Just because I came away from it with a different interpretation doesn't mean it's a wrong interpretation. At least I'm not the one who has to make excuses for a book that condones slavery, rape, genocide, misogyny, etc. I would rather be a better person than that and reject it so until God can show himself I will continue to do so.

1. I hardly think the Bible is tough to decipher. Rather, there are in its many pages a few passages that are tough to follow/understand and a great many that you don't WANT to obey.

2. I don't have to "make excuses" for slavery in a book that contains indentured servitude. I have to defend truth from atheists telling half-truths.

3. How do you know you're a "better person"? So far, we have:

* YOU are better than those stupid bronze age sheep

* YOU deserve/demand special treatment, as God HAS to visit YOU before you trust Him but I never had that leg up in life

The Bible is tough to decipher if you read it with the assumption that this God character is all good and all loving. He rarely does anything that proves that and if anything he comes of as a war-monger and tribal lord who has a favored people and even a favored "land" for them to live on, not only does he not love all people, he doesn't love all land, on the planet the supposedly created which is the only one known to have any life on it.

Indentured servitude is still bad but even many Bible scholars and Christian apologists have admitted the Bible talks about actual slavery, owning people as property until you die and then they are your children's property, it explicitly states what you have to do to own them forever:

Exodus 21: 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

Being a slave forever is not indentured servitude.

I'm a better person because I actually question the Bible, I refuse to believe it's laws because they go against every moral fiber in me and especially since this law giver doesn't even have to courtesy to show himself yet I have to believe he loves me and wants me to stay a virgin until I marry so I don't get stoned to death? Only a good person would be able to have the back bone to stand up to the majority of people who worship this pyschopath and say "We're better than this!" only a sheep would say "Baaah! Well everyone else believes! Baaaah!" No thanks, I'd rather hold to my ethics then go along with the crowd, that alone proves my intentions at trying to be a good person which is the major reason why I reject your God, until he can prove himself of being all good I will continue to question him.

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23-03-2016, 02:01 PM
RE: God's Laws
(28-02-2016 09:52 AM)mgoering Wrote:  When Christians are asked why there are so many laws in the OT that they don't abide by (such as wearing clothes of different fabrics) they famously say that the OT laws don't apply anymore because we have a new covenant with God.

Then why are they constantly citing the ten commandments as important God-given laws that we must follow? What makes the ten commandments unique from all of the other absurd laws in the OT?

And what does it mean when Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18

17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished" ?

Christians should either obey ever last law written in the OT, to the tee (because how can you sincerely make a distinction between one and another), or completely dismiss it as the OLD covenants and not worthy of obedience. But, for God sake, stop cherry picking!

New Covenant means that some laws of Old Covenant don't have to be practiced any more, some laws still have to be practiced , and some new laws are given.
Ten Commandments are part of New Covenant. They were included.

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24-03-2016, 08:06 AM
RE: God's Laws
(23-03-2016 10:34 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 09:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Well, you did manage to redact over 60 documents with 40 authors/teams of authors down to a few "well chosen" ideas! There's a lot more to the Bible then the scant little you've shared out of context!
Would you like me to post the entire bible? And yes, I left many of the atrocities out.

(23-03-2016 09:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Not to mention you skipped the verses--of course you did, since you got them off some atheist site--where if the woman "taken and lieth down with" cries out, as in "rape, not consensual!" you KILL the dude...
First of all, if the text I quoted is not correct then post the correct text.

Second of all, the passage you cited is directly above the verses I cited. It is a separate example.

In other words, it does not apply to the verses/example I cited.

And here's one you left out:

Quote:
Deuteronomy
22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

A woman is raped. She is then stoned to death because she didn't yell loud enough.

This is your god.

Um, do you think they stoned to death MUTE women who were raped because they didn't cry aloud? Gimme a break. A five-year-old gets the idea. She wasn't raped out in the country, she was "in town" having consensual relations.

And the reasons for separate passages are obvious to me (then again, I have the Spirit in me!):

1. Distinctions between rape and consensual behavior, and consequences.

2. Distinctions between singles and married persons (READ what you posted).

Also, and I do hope you find this helpful, Talmud and tradition record that VERY few people (a handful) were EVER stoned. And in Jesus's trial (not that TTAtheists care if Jesus was brutally put to death via a miscarriage of justice) the Sanhedrin after pronouncing any death sentence would normally take up to two weeks to meditate on their judgment in a sort of given appeals process.

Again--and I've shared this at TTA twenty times already--but God knows--you would stone people having consensual sex in public with a pillar of fire right there and God in your midst having just utterly delivered you from Egypt.

Oh, and here's something new for you and for me--let's say I take your argument as true for the sake of finding common ground (and for using the scientific method of hypothesizing as true then going down that road for testing):

I go to my dad next week in ancient Israel and say:

"Dad, I need my inheritance, and some of the land you were giving me when I was older."

"Oh? Why is that, son?"

"There's this chick I really like, and I wanted to marry her, but she wouldn't listen to my courtship. So I gagged her so she couldn't cry aloud per the law of Moses, and I raped her and took her virginity. Now she's mine! Aren't you proud of me? Aren't I a good Jew? Oh, and Dad, my new wife is going to REALLY love and respect me all of her days because of this rape. I can sleep well at night, never worrying she will trim off my privates with a rusty knife..."

C'mon! C'mon!

"Unless she cries out" is obviously not "it's her fault because no one came to help her during the rape", it's "Hey, dummy, hey, big judge, rape is a no-no but SO IS CONSENSUAL FORNICATION AND PUT THE FORNICATORS TO DEATH, FOR ISRAEL IS TO BE HOLY."

Ultimately, I think God's stance on fornication, not rape, is what annoys the TTAtheist. Sorry, but that's how I see it!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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24-03-2016, 08:07 AM
RE: God's Laws
(23-03-2016 02:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 09:52 AM)mgoering Wrote:  When Christians are asked why there are so many laws in the OT that they don't abide by (such as wearing clothes of different fabrics) they famously say that the OT laws don't apply anymore because we have a new covenant with God.

Then why are they constantly citing the ten commandments as important God-given laws that we must follow? What makes the ten commandments unique from all of the other absurd laws in the OT?

And what does it mean when Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18

17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished" ?

Christians should either obey ever last law written in the OT, to the tee (because how can you sincerely make a distinction between one and another), or completely dismiss it as the OLD covenants and not worthy of obedience. But, for God sake, stop cherry picking!

New Covenant means that some laws of Old Covenant don't have to be practiced any more, some laws still have to be practiced , and some new laws are given.
Ten Commandments are part of New Covenant. They were included.

I think these verses are disagreeing with you in part. Perhaps you will interpret them for us?

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

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24-03-2016, 08:35 AM
RE: God's Laws
(23-03-2016 11:47 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
Quote:The eternal punishment of Hell...isn't finite in duration, but it is finite in power/pain

Are you that dishonest on purpose? Do you really think this pathetic attempt at weaseling out will work on anyone in here, or up in heaven? Please dont insult our intellect by not even trying to refute properly. Remember: god is omniscient. He knows when you are lying, even when you dont admit it to yourself. Can you feel him watching you? Who are you trying to fool here?

Its irrelevant if the pain is infinite. It is particularly relevant how long it lasts.......for fucking ever.
Again: How is "for ever" not infinite?

Second:
I asked "How do you determine god is just?"
You say:
Quote:A simple reading of the Bible....shows God is loving and just
Once again, you are trying to insult our intellect, by not answering the question at all. Why this disrespect?
Again: On what basis do you judge god?

Quote:God is just and should punish sinners, so He punishes Christ for the love of mankind
You think its moral to punish someone for someone elses crimes?

Third: "thou shalt not kill"
You seem to have decided to just ignore that issue (as well). I will repeat it here, just to remind you. I am again asking you to resolve this contradiction of yours in your various statements......if you bother to be intellectually honest enough to answer at all.
The Q Continuum Wrote:God's standards are absolute
Deesse23 Wrote:Really? In your answer below you -and the bible- seem to have a completely different point of view
The Q Continuum Wrote:The Bible states that state-sanctioned execution, of say, murderers, is killing that isn't murder. I have no problem with that.

Four:
Deesse23 Wrote:Would you go and rape and kill if your god wouldnt order you otherwise?
The Q Continuum Wrote:**No.
Again: Why do you need "thou shalt not kill" if you wouldnt kill anyway?

Quote:2. I don't have to "make excuses" for slavery in a book that contains indentured servitude. I have to defend truth from atheists telling half-truths.
You are a despicable, dishonest piece of work. If id call you a piece of shit, it would be insulting to shit, because shit at least is honest enough to simply stink and doesnt claim it shines like gold.
See Fatbaldhobbits reply.

You have given up your human dignity for an immoral fantasy. Its hard to sink any deeper than that. Maybe only by being proud of it.....which you actually are.

I will respond to your hostility peaceably, but I encourage you to read my avatar's signature--you are contributing to myths about atheists.

1. You are mad at me for bothering to tell you what I really think? Because I parse infinite and eternal and know the difference between eternal punishment or infinite punishment? How about love, then? When your wife says, "I will love you forever, eternally, does she give you infinite love?" You are entitled to be angry with me for splitting hairs, however, I recommend you not become a lawyer, judge or English instructor if you don't care to look at word meanings in-depth. I don't wish to dispute words with you--but evangelicals love to get into word meanings from the Greek and Hebrew--and English.

2. Is it NOT irrelevant whether pain is infinite. God even SAYS in the Bible, "If you sin more, more punishment, and vice versa," because He is EXACT and FAIR and JUST.

3. Be a little more realistic. Have you murdered anyone? Stolen a man's wife? You will be in darkness forever, with some degree of discomfort. If you are a murderer, and unrepentant--which is a shame as many murderers are getting to Heaven now--you will be in darkness forever, and it will be more unpleasant.

And isn't the real point of Hell that only a foolish person would miss Heaven? If you saw Heaven and Hell in front of you, would you really hesitate?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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24-03-2016, 08:37 AM
RE: God's Laws
(23-03-2016 12:21 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 10:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  So it sounds like your only reason for God to visit YOU is YOU don't believe. How come I was able to believe without the necessity of a visit? Why do I have to believe without a visit but YOU get an easier path? That sounds unfair to me!

Reasons why YOU should get special treatment, above hundreds of millions of believers who've never met/seen God yet:

Reason 1:

Reason 2:

Reason 3:

I don't think you read one thing I wrote here. I already explained it thoroughly, we are working with the assumption that this being is all loving and all knowing and all powerful.

Your badly written Bible isn't good enough for me to believe, all the other believers who have come into contact with me have not been able to convince me. If your God is so all loving and all knowing he would surely know what it would take to make me believe and being all powerful he would be able to make it happen, being all good he would be obligated to do it.

I have heard a few conversion stories where someone was either an atheist or a non-practicing Christian who had an angel experience, near death chat with Jesus, etc. so why is it that God feels the need to grant a visit or at least a lucid dream/vision to some people but most everyone else just get's the Bible?

Fact is if your God seems totally fine with atheists existing and doesn't feel a need to do more to save their souls he is either not powerful enough to do so, doesn't care to or doesn't know how to. The only other option is he simply doesn't exist. I hear all the time that anything is possible through God, ok why can't he make me believe? Like I said it doesn't have to be a personal visit, it could be anything. It could be simply giving me the ability to understand the Bible even though I already do but if he can't do something that simple why would he be worth worshiping or seeking out? I have to go out of my way and disregard all my logic and reasoning to believe in him when he has done exactly nothing to deserve it.

Maybe your God is real and simply isn't all good or all powerful or all knowing, in that case he's not a God but simply a very powerful wizard . An all good being would do whatever it takes to save every person from eternal torture. Some people are easier than others, they just believe while others will prove more of a challenge, if your God can't meet that challenge he's weak and not a God.

Even teachers in a classroom understand all children learn differently, some need to read and take notes, some are more visual learners and need a video or a song. Is God not able to figure out something humans have already come to know? That we all need different stimuli to gain knowledge? He figures an old book that says bats are birds, the Earth is a disk and women are property is going to do just fine? If that's true than not only is your God not all good or powerful he's just very lazy, in that case he's still not worth believing in.

When you say "badly written Bible" I think of atheist college professors I had in Religion who sad the Bible was astonishingly well written. Again, you have a childish excuse for childish behavior. "The Bible isn't clear enough to ME on first pass, so I pass!"

I'm not trying to arouse your ire, here, by the way. You have to be childlike to get into Heaven.

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24-03-2016, 08:37 AM (This post was last modified: 24-03-2016 10:27 AM by The Q Continuum.)
RE: God's Laws
Duplicate post.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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24-03-2016, 08:37 AM (This post was last modified: 24-03-2016 10:27 AM by The Q Continuum.)
RE: God's Laws
Duplicate post when TTA went down for a while today. Sorry.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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